Fighting games on rev - the importance of physics

It seems someone involved in the Mortal Kombat games is unsure how the revmote could be used in fighting games. I think that most people have thought this at one point or another. Fighting games are highly codified, conforming to a pretty strict system of one type or another (the SFII type, the Tekken type, the Soul Calibur type etc). Hell, most gamers complained that the button Layout on the Gamecube pad made fighters unplayable. How is such a strict system going to be achievable on the button light, revmote?

I think the answer to this lies in the fact that fighting games developed from a time when gaming was incredibly simple: Kung Fu; International Karate; SFII; I even remember ZX Spectrum decapitation classic Barbarian. The point is, these games relied on specific combinations of joystick movement and button press to perform complex actions. They mapped a complex character response onto a simple user action. If you think about it, one of the most compelling aspects of SFII was the coincidence of player and character motion: it felt right that the motion down, down-right, right punch resulted in a fireball since the character did that with his hands, same with the back-forward motion of Guile's sonic boom. In otherwords, the game is at it's most compelling when the transformation between user and character action is minimal. The revmote has this in spades.

A second point, which is really missed amongst fighting game fans, is that punching, jumping, kicking, swinging a sword, blocking or any other action you perform in a game is completely unlike the action in real life. Anybody that is practised in a martial art (or in watching martial art films) will be able to tell you that fighting is all about balance and momentum. Punching is not a button press, it is the forceful extension of the arm from the body, with all the associated changes in balance and momentum that follow. In essense, any attack is performed by the whole body. Unfortunately, a simple button press mechanic can't hope to mimick the real life physics of fighting movements.

This is where the rev comes in. Until now we've never seen physics based fighting games because the development of the genre has been based on codified systems of simple button pressing mechanisms. With the rev, and a clever developer, we can translate minimal button presses and lots of freehand movment into a fighting game where opponents fall over from over-extended + well dodged attacks, where blocks can immediately become throws thanks to physics appropriate movement of the character rather than a well timed block+attack button press.

So no, we might not be able to play traditional fighters of the rev, but I'm hoping for something better.

So no, we might not be able to play traditional fighters of the rev

Exactly. Which is a shame.

I'm hoping for something better.

How can you get any better than Street Fighter III: Third Strike? Or Virtua Fighter 5? Or DOA4? Or Tekken 5? Or Soul Calibur? At least one of those games is the greatest fighting game ever, whoever you are. Thus, the answer is that you can't. Let's all look forward to some simplistic 'Melee-esque fighting games on Revo.

I wouldn't be at all suprised if the Revo suffers from a far more severe version of what the GameCube did- Fighting Game Deficiancy.

So no, we might not be able to play traditional fighters of the rev

Uh, why not exactly? Nunchuku set-up = L1 High Punch + L2 High Kick + A Low Punch + B Low Kick mimicing your diamond set up of the SNES pad while using the analogue for movement. Only thing missing are the shoulder buttons, which are only used for shortcut buttons.

For those of you who don't know the arcade version of Tekken only uses 4 buttons + Arcade stick. The same for the street figther games, and Marvel vs. Capcom.

Regardless of the fact that you could easily have this set up for the standard controller package you also have to factor in the classic shell.

Can you both read the post please. I know it's a bit long, but there is an interesting (I think) point to be made. The rev sans shell is not suited to SFII, Soul Calibur type fighters. But, if you read my post I'm suggesting it could do something else, something new and quite possibly better instead.

And Oni-Ninja, perhaps it's just a troll, but how can you possibly say that you can't get any better than games that have gone before? They might be the current apex of traditional fighters, but isn't it possible that something else will come along that will make these games seem utterly dated. Fighting games I played as a kid are unplayable now.

At the moment we have fighting games based on combos, special moves and memorised sequences of joypad/analogue stick moves + button presses. That is remarkably unlike fighting. Moving a revmote to mimick the change in balance of a body as it attempts to dodge, block, parry, push, kick, jump, throw, hold and punch seems like a tantalising and undeniably new way of thinking about a fighting game.

Think of the concepts of force, least resistance and momentum that are behind almost every martial art and compare them to down-down-right-right + punch. It's not exactly an intuitive interface is it?

The rev sans shell is not suited to SFII

I am arguing against this train of thought. I think the controller is suited to the standard fighter scheme just fine, as I mentioned in my previous post. So perhaps you should take your own advice and read my post. Notice just how I quoted a specific part of your post? That means that the section I quoted is the section of your post that I want to argue not what you specifically find interesting.

A tip if you want people to specifically talk about your points is not to make blanket statements such as

So no, we might not be able to play traditional fighters of the rev

The rev sans shell is not suited to SFII

You may want new styles, but there are just as many people that also want an evolution of the old styles as well.

For those of you who don't know the arcade version of Tekken only uses 4 buttons + Arcade stick. The same for the street figther games, and Marvel vs. Capcom.

Err, WRONG. Street Fighter has ALWAYS used a six-button layout. LP, MP, HP, LK, MK, HK. Have you ever played Street Fighter? Besides, who wants to sit there playing fighting games with that ridiculous Nunchaku controller? It clearly not made for fighters. Certainly no six-button ones.

( Edited on 17.03.2006 13:10 by Oni )

I do seem to recall a post I made here detailing how the Revolution controller can have more control input than any pad we've had yet.

If I can think up a way to make and eight button fighter I'm bloody sure developers can do the same, and that's not even taking the shell into consideration...

Oh and the nunchuku controller is really actually quite cool, I look forward to playing a host of fighting games with it

Oh and the nunchuku controller is really actually quite cool

I wasn't trying to say that it isn't. Just that it's ridiculous for fighting games.

If I can think up a way to make and eight button fighter I'm bloody sure developers can do the same, and that's not even taking the shell into consideration...

Oh, come on, now! You can't try and say that the motion features can make up for the lack of buttons in this context. No matter how stable and accurate the motion sensing is, it cannot substitute the speed and preciseness of control that's needed for traditional fighting games, of which can only be provided by buttons.

Can you imagen it? Instead of LP, LP, F, LK, Rotate Clockise, HP, LP, HK, it's A, B, B, Tilt forward abit, Tilt up abit, Draw a circle on the screen, A, B (or whatever). You'd never get the latter right on a consistant basis. It's just nowhere near as precise or quick.

The Revmote is NOT suited to traditional fighting games, at all. With or without it's nunchaku expansion. There's no arguing this. The GameCube pad made a mockery of Capcom Vs SNK 2 enough as it is. The Revmote has no chance. No chance at all.

Remember, I'm not taking into account the importance of such compatibility. Traditional fighters are fading away, fast. From a purely business perspective, Nintendo don't need to care about them. It's just a shame for folks like me (and there are enough of us), who're contantly having to go back to there old consoles and games, as the years go by.

I look forward to playing a host of fighting games with it

That's a shame then, 'cause you'll probably just have to make do with Smash Brothers. Maybe you'll get a Viewtiful Joe game, but then they're more side-scrollers than traditional fighters. If you want proper traditional fighting games, the Revo will no doubt dissapoint.

Did I mention any form of motion sensing replacing buttons?

If I can think up a way to make and eight button fighter I'm bloody sure developers can do the same,

Please read my post in future, it'll save us all some time

I did read your post. I merely came to the conclusion that most of the buttons on the Revmote aren't in optimal positions for traditional fighting games. I would know, being a fight game nut.

Here's a traditional (and highly acclaimed) arcade stick, which is faithful to arcade cabinet controls. It is the BEST way to play traditional fighters (Street Fighter, King Of Fighters, etc..).

Here are some standard console controllers that approximate this control method very well (one that never got the chance to shine in this genre, unfortunatly)..

Here are some pads that do a reasonable (but not as good) job of emulating the arcade stick, and are still okay for traditional fighters.

Here's one that is so pants for traditional fighters, that Capcom even had to butcher the control scheme of Capcom Vs SNK 2 to get the game to a playable standard. However, they also killed the incredibly balanced fighting system in process. Here's the pad to blame..

The GC pad wasn't up to the task of traditional fighters AT ALL. You have to be some kind of schmo not to realise that. Doesn't make it a bad pad by any means, just shit for proper fighting games.

Now you come to me, and you say this pad is capable of an 8 button fighting game layout...

*calm*

Okay, where you're wrong, is that while it may technically have enough buttons, they're all miles away from each other, and nowhere even near acceptable for a proper fighting game. Games like Street Fighter require lightnight fast button combinations, of which just aren't practical on the Revmote. I can't believe you're seriously arguing that it does!

It's too disjointed for such gameplay. This is not arguable, it's a fact. If the GC pad couldn't manage it, then there's no way on god's green earth that the Revmote can. Fact.

Please read my post in future, it'll save us all some time

You're always saying this when we have disputes, and I don't like it. It implies that I have some level of stupity in replying to your posts 'before I've read them'. I read your post well, and replied accordingly. You were arguing against perfectly sound reason and logic, and made some ridiculous claim which I answered to. It fucks me off when you just brush my entire post to the side with such a comment. Please don't. I don't do it to you.

Listen Oni, at no point did I ever mention here:

If I can think up a way to make and eight button fighter I'm bloody sure developers can do the same, and that's not even taking the shell into consideration...

Anything about the Revmote using motion sensing control, not even implied it or suggested it in the slightest, yet you quoted me and replied with this:

Oh, come on, now! You can't try and say that the motion features can make up for the lack of buttons in this context. No matter how stable and accurate the motion sensing is, it cannot substitute the speed and preciseness of control that's needed for traditional fighting games, of which can only be provided by buttons.

Can you imagen it? Instead of LP, LP, F, LK, Rotate Clockise, HP, LP, HK, it's A, B, B, Tilt forward abit, Tilt up abit, Draw a circle on the screen, A, B (or whatever). You'd never get the latter right on a consistant basis. It's just nowhere near as precise or quick.

You seem to be hell bent on debating something I'm not even talking about, then thinking that we are having a dispute (thought it feels like it now, for some crazy reason ), I'm not disputing anything here. The only times I have quoted you was once to have a bit of fun / a laugh RE: the nunchuku controller, and a second time to ask you to read my post.

I am truly sorry if you felt that was being somehow wrong toward you, but I have made it very clear that you quoted me then launched a tangent toward me about something I didn't even suggest. That is why I asked you to read my post again and I'll be doing it again if the same situation occurs with anyone, you included. Now:

This has become terribly messy as it is so please DO NOT resopond to me here, if you feel you need to speak with me further for whatever reason then I'd be more than happy to talk through PM - cheers

Moderators, sorry for the mess here, just felt I had to respond considering Oni's last paragraph directed toward me - don't lock this thread just for this, the "problem" should be settled.

Okay

However, you've still got the rest of my last post to reply to.. :-/

To be totally honest tradtional fighting games arn't exactly the type of game that spring to mind that i really want for the Rev...i'm sure some developers out there will have a go at making a fighting game suited to the controle method on the rev remote , maby we'll even get a game somthing along the lines of that Ragdoll kungfu game.

Oni, sorry but you are actually acting fucking stupid. I take it you're a smash bros' hater considering your first post. You call it simple, but it beat every single fighting game ever, because it required you to think quickly, rather than remembering more button combinations than your opponent. Smash bros is the onyl fighting game I've ever played that you can simply not win by button bashing. (Some do it really well too, but not as well as smash bros.)

The GC conroller can easily be used for fighting games. Capcom just made a shit scheme for it to be used. The GC was the 2nd best controller of this generation (after the S controller), in my opinion, because it abandoned the "every button has to be the same size" mechanic, which made games easier to play. You knew A was going to be the primary button, b the secondary and x and y for secondary functions.

I've got SCII on my GC, and I don't have any issues with it at all. I'd like to know why you require a 6 button, 2 row layout to play fighting games.

Traditional fighters are mostly pants anyway.

( Edited on 17.03.2006 16:42 by knighty )

I think traditional fighters are going to be one of those genres of games that requires the shell OR Nintendo modifying the controller before release (i.e. including a SNES button layout at the bottom rather than just a NES one, so you could turn the pad sideways and not use the nunchuk extension). As the revmote is, sure, it could probably handle fighters, but you're not going to be playing Street Fighter on it and feeling overly comfortable.

( Edited on 17.03.2006 16:54 by Mason )

Oni-Ninja eats muff.

I can't be arsed with a proper argument, other than 'proper fighting games' are going to get boring.

I've broke a few pads playing 'proper' fighting games, because of fucked up 20+ button combos that warrant people, normally loved ones, doing the same fucking moves over and over. Cue loved ones getting kicked in the kidneys

'Proper' fighting games are outta here. Give us something original and fun please.

EDIT: Sod it, I'll play Street Fighter like any other stupid eejit, but still, it's annoying when you want to just jump in and play, and Oni-Ninja, I think the Gamecube / Rev pads might be a problem with that, so I don't think you eat muff. Well, you do. But anyway. If the pads are at least similar, then BANZAI!! in we go. But then, what's the point of 3 consoles having the EXACT SAME features? Obviously, there'll be things that PS3 and the 360 won't do, because they can't, likewise, the Rev won't be doing any fancy 6 button footie games.

( Edited on 17.03.2006 17:26 by Frazzle )

But with Revolution movement controls, up down left and right can be used also.

Oni, sorry but you are actually acting fucking stupid.

Erm, no I'm not. I'm speaking from an overwhelming experiance with fighting games. The traditional fighting genre is among my favourite types of games, and has been for year.s IO've played them all, mate. So don't call me 'fucking stupid', you cunt

I take it you're a smash bros' hater considering your first post.

Wrong.

You call it simple

Err, 'cause it is..?

but it beat every single fighting game ever, because it required you to think quickly, rather than remembering more button combinations than your opponent.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA... *breathe* AHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAAAAAAAA

It may have 'beat every single fighting game ever', in your opinion, but that's actually very far removed from how most fighter fans see it. It's a great party game, nothing more. It's not a fighting for people who are serious about their fighters

Smash bros is the onyl fighting game I've ever played that you can simply not win by button bashing. (Some do it really well too, but not as well as smash bros.)

That's bollocks. You can win at Smash Brothers by button bashing, it all depends on your opponent. I assure you that it's entirely possible to button bash your way through 'Melee, and through many versus battles and have a moderate level of success.

I'm absolutely certain that no-one could ever beat me at Street Fighter (any installment), Tekken (any installment), Virtua Fighter (any installment), Capcom Vs SNK (1&2), Marvel Vs Capcom (1&2), Dead or Alive (any installment), or King of Fighters (any installment).

These are extremely deep games, some of which have a depth that is beyond measure, ie; No matter how long you play it, you're always getting better, you're always learning new techniques, and there'll always be someone better than you.

Watch someone parry (not block) all six hits of your Shinku Hadouken, then try and say it's a button-basher's paradise.

It's not these game's fault if you're crap at it, and can be beat by a button basher. It doesn't make the game bad, and certainly doesn't make 'Melee better. You found it easier to play, which is understandable. It's very simple, and fun. It is a great little game. There's not as much to it, however. It's your typical 'Nintendo doing a genre, party-style' game.

The GC conroller can easily be used for fighting games. Capcom just made a shit scheme for it to be used.

That's complete and utter bollocks. I fail to see how it's Capcom's fault that they had to adapt their six-button fighting game to a pad which has four buttons and two shoulder levers (which are far less ideal than even shoulder buttons).

Capcom did what they could, with a controller that just isn't up to scratch for traditional fighters. Hence, only one great third-party fighting game made it to GamCube. And when it did, it was a mere shadow of it's former self. Shame. Nintendo are to blame.

The GC was the 2nd best controller of this generation (after the S controller), in my opinion, because it abandoned the "every button has to be the same size" mechanic, which made games easier to play. You knew A was going to be the primary button, b the secondary and x and y for secondary functions.

Which has precisely... NOTHING to do with what we're talking about. We're talking about traditional fighters, not games in general. No-one's saying that any of the pads in question are bad. We're talking about their suitability for fighters. Keep up.

've got SCII on my GC, and I don't have any issues with it at all.

Soul Calibur is a four-button fighting game. The GC pad has four buttons.

I'd like to know why you require a 6 button, 2 row layout to play fighting games.

Some of Capcom's (and other companies') most fondly remembered fighting franchises are six-button games. To play them, you need a pad with at least six buttons. Levers do not substitute buttons in this case. To play them how they were meant, then you need a pad with six buttons on the face of the device, ideally in a two-row-of-three-buttons, with each button being equally placed and sized.

Traditional fighting games use all of it's action buttons more-or-less equally. Having big green buttons, mixed in with little grey bean-shaped ones causes problems in games where intricate button combinations are required. If you're wandering, Soul Calibur isn't one of these.

It's one of the newer breeds of fighters, where everything takes place on a truly 3D plane, and you position and stance, your blocking and your parrying skills come to prominance. Combos take a backseat.

It's really quite simple, and I don't see how it's such a hard concept for you to grasp. The GC pad sucks at six-button fikghting games, because it has only four oddly shaped and placed buttons, with two shoulder levers (which are shit substitutes for real buttons in this context). It's really very simple.

Traditional fighters are mostly pants anyway.

No, they just take many years of devoted play to master. It doesn't make them 'pants'. It just means that people with concentration spans of gnats aren't going to like them. Smash Brothers Melee is probably right down their alley, though

To be totally honest tradtional fighting games arn't exactly the type of game that spring to mind that i really want for the Rev

Well yeah, which is sort of what I originally said. Most folks won't care, therefore it's not important for Nintendo.

I think traditional fighters are going to be one of those genres of games that requires the shell

I think so, too. Which is why all this talk of the shell being a copy of the GC pad has worried me in the past. I can't wait until Nintendo unveil the Shell. It's this E3, isn't it? It better not be modelled on the GC pad.

As the revmote is, sure, it could probably handle fighters, but you're not going to be playing Street Fighter on it and feeling overly comfortable.

Exactly.

Oni-Ninja eats muff.

You say that like it's a bad thing

But with Revolution movement controls, up down left and right can be used also.

No mate. Just... NO. That is what we would call a shit compremise.

I think so, too. Which is why all this talk of the shell being a copy of the GC pad has worried me in the past. I can't wait until Nintendo unveil the Shell. It's this E3, isn't it? It better not be modelled on the GC pad.

Unless Iwata goes and reveals it at GDC in a few days, yeah, it'll be E3. I'm actually expecting it to look like some kind of hybrid of the N64 pad and GC pad (N64 button layout, put only two prongs with analogue stick placement like GC), but I'm not sure how they'll accomplish it...

Maby we should get back on topic and try to discuss possibilites for new types of fighting games on the Rev and not try to map old games to new rev's radical new controller?

A shit compromise is the best we have right now...

Unless the add on pad that goes with the Revo controller has a better suited layout.

Oni, yes exactly, SCII is completely different to older fighting games, and you talk as though this is a bad thing....sort of....Why can't newer fighting games be more like SCII? The reason old games like SF were designed for 6 buttons was because we didn't have pads, we had arcade cabinets, which you can't really hold in your hand, which made having 6 buttons much easier than a pad layout.

You don't have to sit there relishing the past, and thinking that every fighting game that doesnt play like SF sucks. I know you don't completely, but at times when you post you seem to obsess over the past.

I'm sorry if my post seemed a brash. I don't doubt you're very good at those games you listed, and that my knowledge is piss poor compared to yours (as I don't particularly like "traditional" beat 'em ups). So yeah, I apologise for that.

Anyway, I think the beat 'em ups on the Rev should be left to the shell. If they tried to adapt the revmote to SSB, I'd have to cry...

( Edited on 17.03.2006 18:27 by knighty )

Err, WRONG. Street Fighter has ALWAYS used a six-button layout. LP, MP, HP, LK, MK, HK. Have you ever played Street Fighter?

they're all miles away from each other

Don't forget we're arguing about a controller that we haven't seen the final design for.

Hell yeah!

If the shell turns out to have traditional fighter-compatible buttons, we can all smile and laugh at this topic for it is a tad rediculous.