News: Epic: The Wii is Backwards, a Virus Page 2

James2t3 20.04.2008#26

Yeah I heard the thing has been taken from a big Gears of War 2 thing and Kotaku just lifted the flame bait.

DaOne said:
I play games to relax, I tend to not like flailing around on the air.

Don't exaggerate Smilie , also I can think a few game on the 360 that cause more stress than relaxation *cough* halo online*cough* Smilie

knighty 20.04.2008#27

Maybe I just have a jaded opinion because I'm interested in the tech myself? I'll typically sit and play a game and spend way too long staring at pretty things wondering how they're done and how I can do them myself. If I thought the Wii was really doing different I'd think your opinion was perfectly fine but it's fucking done nothing! I seriously don't know how anyone can argue against that! As I said before, I'd love to see a list of games that can only be done on the Wii.

WP-Final 20.04.2008#28

knighty said:
Pointer gameplay? Oh yeah, star bits really improve the game experience

There's also the blue things that go "wooooo" and grap a hold of mario. Smilie

knighty 20.04.2008#29

I can also think of some that cause more than Halo.

*cough* Mario Kart Wii *cough*

In the short 2 hours I played it I probably made several death threats.

Mason 20.04.2008#30

That's the problem with Wii - it set out to be all revolutionary, but the potential still hasn't really been grasped and existing genres have had motion controls shoved in rather than new derivations of genres appearing because of the controls. It's undoubtedly improved some things for me - No More Heroes could work well on any other system, but some of the motion features of Wii made the game more interesting IMO, Endless Ocean's swimming with the pointer is perfect but otherwise the game could be on anything else, the arcade shooters are more easily accessible on Wii but could be done elsewhere with a gun add-on - but the lack of truly new stuff is infuriating. I could only list a couple of games off the top of my head that couldn't be done to the same degree anywhere else honestly, and those are Zack and Wiki and Eledees. Wii Fit is probably belonging on this list too.

Don�t take this as me saying Wii is crap, because I still like the system and the pointer/motion controllers improve things a lot of the time in more traditional titles, but I just wish some risks would be taken.

knighty said:
I can also think of some that cause more than Halo.
*cough* Mario Kart Wii *cough*
In the short 2 hours I played it I probably made several death threats.

Sounds like Mario Kart all over...

Simes 20.04.2008#31

Knighty the pointer is used for more than collecting star bits. Anyone who played through SMG completely would know that.
You always rip at the Wii so much that I wonder why your on this site sometimes. Which is a shame because I respect you and what you do. But you saying Wii isn't good/precise/stable enough for FPS games is ridiculous, and if you think the dual analog setup is a better option for FPS controls then you've lost all credability.

James2t3 20.04.2008#32

It wasn't a dig at the xbox knighty.

knighty 20.04.2008#33

Simez you probably don't play any console FPS' with dual analogue so you can't have an opinion there. I'm on this site because I still like Nintendo games, maybe not as much as I did when I joined because I despise Nintendo's direction with the Wii but I still enjoy it, plus I like most of the people here. Obviously not you, but there are still plenty of decent people hanging around.

I know it's used for more than star bits, that wasn't my point. The point was that it could have been done on any other console with non-game-breaking changes.

And Blade I know it wasn't a dig, I was just pointing out something I do a lot, that "non-violent" games usually make me more violent Smilie

JoshSL 20.04.2008#34

Pfft. Failure.

They have a point, but they have no reason to be harsh about it. Also, the PS2 was just as bad for the same reason. While knighty/Joe have a point, that the games could probably be done on 360/PS3 aswell, saying it only has a play span of 2 months is BS. Some may see me as a fanboy, but I know for certain the Wii has more than that. Who cares if Brawl is just Melee with extra bits, so is halo 3 to Halo 2. 360 has new games, like GoW, but so does the Wii, like Zack & Wiki, and No More Heroes.

These guys sound pretty arrogant to me. I don't want stuck ups like them making games on my console anyway. Smilie

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D_prOdigy 20.04.2008#35

Gears of War had some of the freshest FPS gameplay ever, and was damn fun. Anyone who says otherwise simply hasn't played it.

*timidly raises hand* I have played it extensively, and found it to be hugely boring after ten minutes.

So you stop playing it after two months,

Again, I find myself disagreeing with someone. I still play the hell out of Battalion Wars 2 (and for the record, pwn everyone online) and still have regular play sessions of Exite Truck; which I bought on release.

Oh, and I can't be bothered finding a quote to contradic someone for this one, but I'd like to point out Zack and Wiki as one game that COULD NOT be done on another console, PC maybe, but not a "next-gen" console.

And finally, anyone who says that Wii's pointer funtionality doesn't revolutionize FPS on consoles clearly hasn't experienced MoH:H2.

Too many silly arguments to find holes in!

knighty 20.04.2008#36

SL, I never said it's bad a bad thing that Brawl is Melee with more stuff. I was saying it's bad because Nintendo were promising so much more.

alienanthropologist 20.04.2008#37

As a profit-making company (and I assume that Epic is a profit-making company), it doesn't matter where your allegiances lie or what your personal preferences are: You do whatever you have to do to get the money rolling in... To rule out completely any future involvement with the most successful current gen console because of a personal whimsical dislike, doesn't sound like the wisest business decision.

If I were a share-holder of Epic, I know I would be writing a very unhappy letter.

knighty 20.04.2008#38

Maybe Epic care more about what they produce than how much money they're rolling in.

Oh and btw to suggest that they're not rolling in money would be stupid Smilie Do you have any idea what they make off of UE?

Darkflame 20.04.2008#39

The arrogant part is not them not wanting to port an engine..thats perfectly fine.

The arrogant part is claiming the Wii is a virus and there isnt a single game that makes him want to play it.

\"Gears of War had some of the freshest FPS gameplay ever, and was damn fun. Anyone who says otherwise simply hasn\'t played it\"

Yes I did play it.
In fact, if anything, I was getting more enjoyment because I was playing in co-op. (co-op is always a good option and improves everything)

However, it was still a dull, dull game after the graphics had worren off.
It was extremely repedative. Just A to B and shot, A to B and shot. Oh look, a choice between routes...A to B easy and shot, or A to B hard and shot. Great.

GoW wasnt a bad game by any means, but it was very much graphics over substance.

\"basically every game on the Wii could be done on the 360/PS3\"

WiiSports, specificaly Baseball is impossible on any other format. Day 1 game.
The gameplay mechcanics of hitting the ball with the bat would be both more abstracted, and less acurrate on any other format.

But that aside, almost all Wii games *can* be done on any other format, but that dosnt mean that would be as good.

Try using your PC without a mouse.

Its possible isnt it?
Does that make a mouse useless?

Emulateing pointer input is the same. Just because you can emulate one controll with another dosnt mean its as accurate or feels as good.

The Wiimote is great for giving X/Y/Z rotation input accurately, and onscreen pointing.

It is a precision instrument and highly accurate at both those things. (much moreso then a stick is, incidently).

The problem is when measureing displacement movement, geasture-button mapped input specificaly, then indeed its no better then buttons.

But thats no critism of Nintendo, thats a critism of
third partys unwilling to invest....like Epic.

Heck, we havnt had a single developer use IK-based systems to work out from the wiimotes angle the position of the persons arm. (which, in turn, could be reflected on the onscreen avatar, thus allowing good 1:1 swordfighting, with matching dynamicaly generated charecter models).

For all this huge investment in graphics, nothing is really being spent on motion controlls.

Epic is just pissed off because they invested in the wrong thing.
If anyone truely invested in the Wii, they could make a killing.
Unfortuntely lots of publishing house\'s thought Nintendo was a lost cause, thus all their toolchains, budgets and in-development games are focused on high-spec mesh\'s and effects.

\"Pointer gameplay? Oh yeah, star bits really improve the game experience\"

No, but the bits you click on to make mario fly between planets are quite important.
Sure, they could have teleport plates or something, but it wouldnt feel the same.

Still, Mario is one of the weakest examples.
Metroid, WiiSports, Zack and Wiki, Koropina, ect.
Theres dozens of better examples.

These games would be horrible if played with two analogue sticks.

( Edited 20.04.2008 19:21 by Darkflame )

Edit this post:

The arrogant part is not them not wanting to port an engine..thats perfectly fine.

The arrogant part is claiming the Wii is a virus and there isnt a single game that makes him want to play it.

"Gears of War had some of the freshest FPS gameplay ever, and was damn fun. Anyone who says otherwise simply hasn't played it"

Yes I did play it.
In fact, if anything, I was getting more enjoyment because I was playing in co-op. (co-op is always a good option and improves everything)

However, it was still a dull, dull game after the graphics had worren off.
It was extremely repedative. Just A to B and shot, A to B and shot. Oh look, a choice between routes...A to B easy and shot, or A to B hard and shot. Great.

GoW wasnt a bad game by any means, but it was very much graphics over substance.

"basically every game on the Wii could be done on the 360/PS3"

WiiSports, specificaly Baseball is impossible on any other format. Day 1 game.
The gameplay mechcanics of hitting the ball with the bat would be both more abstracted, and less acurrate on any other format.

But that aside, almost all Wii games *can* be done on any other format, but that dosnt mean that would be as good.

Try using your PC without a mouse.

Its possible isnt it?
Does that make a mouse useless?

Emulateing pointer input is the same. Just because you can emulate one controll with another dosnt mean its as accurate or feels as good.

The Wiimote is great for giving X/Y/Z rotation input accurately, and onscreen pointing.

It is a precision instrument and highly accurate at both those things. (much moreso then a stick is, incidently).

The problem is when measureing displacement movement, geasture-button mapped input specificaly, then indeed its no better then buttons.

But thats no critism of Nintendo, thats a critism of 
third partys unwilling to invest....like Epic.

Heck, we havnt had a single developer use IK-based systems to work out from the wiimotes angle the position of the persons arm. (which, in turn, could be reflected on the onscreen avatar, thus allowing good 1:1 swordfighting, with matching dynamicaly generated charecter models).

For all this huge investment in graphics, nothing is really being spent on motion controlls.

Epic is just pissed off because they invested in the wrong thing.
If anyone truely invested in the Wii, they could make a killing.
Unfortuntely lots of publishing house's thought Nintendo was a lost cause, thus all their toolchains, budgets and in-development games are focused on high-spec mesh's and effects.

"Pointer gameplay? Oh yeah, star bits really improve the game experience"

No, but the bits you click on to make mario fly between planets are quite important.
Sure, they could have teleport plates or something, but it wouldnt feel the same.

Still, Mario is one of the weakest examples.
Metroid, WiiSports, Zack and Wiki, Koropina, ect.
Theres dozens of better examples.

These games would be horrible if played with two analogue sticks.

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russraine 20.04.2008#40

To be honest I don't blame them. Time and time again all third (and second) party developers have shown that Nintendo themselves are the only ones who can really push the Wii. Fact is Epic wouldn't be able to put together a decent game on Wii, don't get me wrong it would be ok, just not up to their usual standards.

JoshSL 20.04.2008#41

No third party developer other than Capcom & maybe SEGA has EVER put real effort into making a Wii game.

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James2t3 20.04.2008#42

And Blade I know it wasn't a dig, I was just pointing out something I do a lot, that "non-violent" games usually make me more violent Smilie

Kk, use emoticons were needed!

JoshSL 20.04.2008#43

I sure hope Mario platformers don\'t make you violent knighty. O_O

Oh, and Mario Kart makes me frustrated as hell, but Halo sometimes makes me depressed/bored if I\'m getting sniped every step I take. Yeah, I probably suck, but so what? Being sniped is no fun.

EDIT: Just thought someone should let Epic Failure know, that Wii is backwards, in that it\'s the only 7th gen console that has perfect success with backwards compatibility, to one of the best consoles ever no less! gg.

( Edited 20.04.2008 19:31 by SuperLink )

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Darkflame 20.04.2008#44

"Simez you probably don't play any console FPS' with dual analogue so you can't have an opinion there."

Its debateable if the wiimote is better then a mouse and keyboard, but there is no way any sane person will think two analogue sticks are better then it for rapid position based input.

"And Blade I know it wasn't a dig, I was just pointing out something I do a lot, that "non-violent" games usually make me more violent "

Thats true.
MarioKart is one of the most violent games known to man, imo.

" I was saying it's bad because Nintendo were promising so much more."

What were they promising they didnt deliver :?
Seems to me that an online smash bros with new charecters was pretty much what they were always promising.
Same template as, say, MarioKartDS and TwlightPrincess.
Nothing fundimentaly new, but as big and as much chucked in as possible with lots of nice touchs.

I could be wrong here, but I just dont remember Nintendo promising Smashbros would be revolutionary.
===

Also regarding games relaxing or not, come on now, we are all gamers and that has little to do with the amount of physical movement.
Its to do with the emotional intensity of the game.

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Mason 20.04.2008#45

SuperLink said:
No third party developer other than Capcom & maybe SEGA has EVER put real effort into making a Wii game.

Lies.

Grasshopper - No More Heroes.
Konami - PES 2008, Eledees, Dewy's Adventure.
EA - MySims, Medal Of Honour, Godfather Wii edition.
Atlus - Trauma Centre.

Cases could possibly be made for Vivendi for Geometry Wars Galaxies and THQ for the upcoming de Blob and Deadly Creatures too.

JoshSL 20.04.2008#46

Mason said:
Lies.
Grasshopper - No More Heroes.
Konami - PES 2008, Eledees, Dewy's Adventure.
EA - MySims, Medal Of Honour, Godfather Wii edition.
Atlus - Trauma Centre.
Cases could possibly be made for Vivendi for Geometry Wars Galaxies and THQ for the upcoming de Blob and Deadly Creatures too.

And really, that just goes to help my point, that there are other great games out on Wii. Not sure about Konami or EA... And Grasshopper is pretty small compared to Capcom/SEGA/Namco (I hate Namco now. Smilie

) but it shows that there are comapnies who aren't Nintendo who may be willing to put it an effort.

Now I want MGS2/3 or an MGS spin-off on Wii plx.

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RufDogRacing 20.04.2008#47

Harsh. But in typical Strat Man Nintendo mutiny fashion - I can see where they're coming from.

Tom Barry [ Reviewer - Editor - Resident Sim-Racer @ Cubed3.com ]

Mason 20.04.2008#48

SuperLink said:
Not sure about Konami or EA... And Grasshopper is pretty small compared to Capcom/SEGA/Namco (I hate Namco now. ) but it shows that there are comapnies who aren't Nintendo who may be willing to put it an effort.

Grasshopper - count 'em as Marvelous then, since they act under them. Smilie

Konami have definitely put the effort in. Eledees was one of the only launch titles (in Japan and USA) that used the system in a new and unique way that hadn't really been done before, Dewy's Adventure wasn't that great but the effort to create a new slant on the platformer was there, PES 2008 is by all accounts a reinvention of the football game. There's no doubt in my mind that Konami 'get' Wii and have been trying with the thing.

EA are just about the only Western developer separate from Nintendo that have done really good things with the system. They specially designed new controls for Madden, their Godfather controls are still amongst the best on the system, they tried a new direction with The Sims franchise exclusively for Nintendo and had a good whack at an online FPS with Medal Of Honour. Again, no doubt for me that they're trying.

Fatman 20.04.2008#49

Stulaw90 said:
Epic fail because they describe exactly what happened to make the PS2 so popular.

Funnily enough i was thinking the same thing...

A fail so epic, it may just be a win.

dojo 20.04.2008#50

I agree with Mason's earlier comment - they're just throwing away free money. For him to say this:

"Obviously there�s a class of people who really love it and enjoy it"

is terribly insulting to a pocket of gamers who enjoy their time on both the Wii and 360 or PS3. Obviously he has no obligation to be nice about Wii, but you'd think he was hired by Sony...

Also, knighty, saying there's no game on Wii that can't be done on 360 is also reversible. Gears could be done on Wii with poorer graphics, just like Mario Kart could be done on 360 without...Mario characters. And Brawl could be done on PS3...without Nintendo characters. But then Mario Kart becomes "generic racer Kart" and Brawl becomes "Snake vs Sonic" and you're left with something a bit sour. Whereas Gears of War becomes "Gears of War", with poorer graphics. And...um, that's it.

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Epic: The Wii is Backwards, a Virus

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