Brexit - EU Referendum

It's a bit late to start this up now, since it's voting day today, but perhaps we can still have a small discussion about it and follow the results coming in over the next 24 hours.

So... Britain is voting to decide if it remains in the European Union.

Did you vote today?

Why did you vote to remain? Why did you vote to leave?

If you're not sure, did you vote one way or the other, or not bother at all?

As it stands, I'm not voting.

I've looked at both sides as best I can in the last few weeks, but it's been incredibly difficult to get solid facts from either. I've found the campaign to be insulting and ridiculous, full of scaremongering and fear tactics on both teams. I've simply wanted facts on the pros and cons, and yet all we really do have are predictions and best guesses.

There's no way to know for sure what leaving will entail. Whether it will be better for certain people or worse. What I've understood is that the economy will supposedly be worse off if we leave, but I want to know why and how. I don't think I can find that out. I want to know facts.

I think remaining is the safer option, given the views of certain people saying to remain, and I can see the pros of the EU over the years - human/worker rights, being at peace internally since WW2, etc. But I think the EU is a corrupt superstate as well, and doesn't listen to what the UK has to say. Stay in and reform it - that's what I think is best - but I cannot for the life of me see it happening.

People say to vote remain if you're not sure, but I ask why? If I'm not sure, I wouldn't want to cast a vote on a side that could potentially be worse than the other. We don't know for sure that leaving will be worse or better. There's no way to know. And if there is, I want to know about it.

Either way, I don't think it will make much of a difference. The NHS is still fucked, the Tories will still be charge. Part of me wants us to vote out just to see what happens. To see Scotland get independence and push it on again for Wales.

What I have noticed is just how many people I know are voting out - which is pretty much all of the older generation. And without generalising them, a lot of it comes down to racism. I feel like, given what happened at the general election, where the vocal liberals were all over social media planning to vote to get Cameron out and failing horribly, this will be the same again - the older generation will have their say again and show that the vocal remainers are a minority. It will be close, but I reckon we'll vote out.

Anyone reading and interested, please share some thoughts. My family has been split on it, as have I and my mates, so I am completely conflicted.

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:26 by Guest )

Result was exactly what I thought. The vocal social media generation is a minority.

No one have thoughts as to what they voted for?

tbh I don't think things will be as bad as people make out.

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:27 by Guest )

I am not a citizen of the UK, but I think it should remain in the EU .... although judging by recent results, the majority of support Brexit

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:27 by Guest )

Exactly what I expected. Who wouldn't after last years elections results?

For me I'm worried what the future will hold now. I voted remain, of course. I still think for this type of thing there needed to be more of a universal agreement. It was basically half the country wanted out and half wanted in. How is that fair?

Anyway, I'm more worried how it'll effect people. For all the things we've progressed in, I feel this is a turn for the worse and going backwards. It's scary, really scary.

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:27 by Guest )

You guys won't be half as bad as people made it out to be from Brexit alone. But that party of yours wanting a Brexit government come next elections sounds like trouble (UKIP?), not because of Brexit but because of what their program sounds like. Tightening borders and likely higher taxes on importations to push the Brits to buy only British stuff means the rest of the world will take the same measures towards British exportations, that's how it works. They didn't say outright it was part of their program from what I can read about them, but it's part of the program of every ultra nationalist parties in every country, that's nothing new. And that doesn't sound good for your economy. Being outside of EU is good for you guys I think. he EU parliament is just a bunch of nosy old farts that like to dabble into individual countries businesses and dictates what countries must do with their money, so you're better off outside of it for your own good. Let the British people decide what they want for themselves. However it's the political repercussions that may come in the aftermath of Brexit that don't sound too good. That's how I see it anyway. If Brexit leads to a more self-centered policy, there will be economical repercussions.

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:27 by Guest )

Y'all done fucked up.

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:27 by Guest )

There are very legit reasons why people wanted to leave and I understand fully why so many did. Contrary to what most new 'experts' on the matter would have you believe, not all leave voters are racists (even though many of them are, I assure you). The EU is a corrupt organisation and practically uncontrolled immigration that has actually affected people's jobs are easy reasons to vote against staying in. With the government doing fuck all to help the working class and poverty-stricken areas of Wales and England, it's no surprise to see people do the only thing they could to fight back - vote out of the EU.

Many are ignorant as to the consequences, and hits to funds for Wales and cancer research, rises in petrol and hits on students, etc, are all depressing, but the government and the Remain campaign has failed massively to get facts out there and shove them in people's faces. We should have had posters, billboards, online ads, TV ads everywhere, telling people straight why leaving would be bad. Facts and proof wasn't there, and the Remain campaign didn't do enough. It's for this reason I didn't vote - I saw pros and cons to both sides, but I believed in neither because of the fear tactics, lies and lack of facts and proof. I can only vote for what I understand and believe in.

I've not appreciated just how volatile and nasty people have been - particularly the remainers. Very quick to attack the leavers and brand them all racists. It's true many are, but there are very legit reasons why people wanted to leave. Personally, I think people are blowing it out of proportion. Like it's the end of the world or something. Maybe things will be bad for a while, but it's not gonna kill us. We have to accept it and work together to make things better. I suppose it will all die down over the coming days and weeks. At least Scotland will get independence now.

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:27 by Guest )

=13pxPersonally, I think people are blowing it out of proportion. Like it's the end of the world or something. Maybe things will be bad for a while, but it's not gonna kill us. 

1) The EU eventually disintegrates anyway. In which case maybe the UK seems smart to go ahead and hop out of the car before it careens off the cliff. That said, don't pat yourselves on the back for your foresight so soon, since a better analogy might be predicting your own death in the interim between leaping off a cliff and finally meeting the earth.

And make no mistake, if the EU fails, you all will feel it just as much as the rest of the world, Brexit or not.

2) The EU stabilizes, survives, and moves on. And with Germany and France under each arm, I think this is possible. In this case, the trend toward globalization continues -- now with the UK left out in the cold in every trade deal of real significance. In this scenario, the waning of your country's relevance only accelerates (Scotland and Northern Ireland send their regards on their way out the door).

Obama and Biden have been going on today about the special relationship not changing, but the reality is, it's such a nice special relationship because it's really useful for the US to have a powerful buddy inside one of the world's most valuable economic trade zones. After this, you can't speak for our shared interests at this very important table. This move inevitably means the United States must pivot more toward Germany and France. Caught up in the midst of this wave of nationalistic fervor, many may scoff at this, but it's important. These are the sort of shifts which aren't fully appreciated for years.

You might be wondering whether there's an option 3) here where everything works out great for Britain, but I just don't think there is. Either the EU fails -- in which case no amount of Brexiting will save any of us from the world-wide bloodbath that will entail -- or the EU succeeds and Britain fails to reap nearly the level of benefits. 

So Britain has decided it's more important to keep out brown people than consider it's long-term prospects. 

I'm terrified my country might make a similar mistake this November.
 

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:27 by Guest )

now with the UK left out in the cold in every trade deal of real significance.

Either the EU fails -- in which case no amount of Brexiting will save any of us from the world-wide bloodbath that will entail

So Britain has decided it's more important to keep out brown people than consider it's long-term prospects.

And again, it's the politicians', remain camp's and current government's jobs to drive that information through to everybody. They never did, though. Many leave voters have been very stubborn and set in their ways - with immigration issues firmly embedded into their minds, nothing you say would likely change their minds - but the effort on the part of the remain camp has been really poor, and hasn't done a good job of educating people on the matter at hand.

I'm terrified my country might make a similar mistake this November.

What sort of deals are we talking here? I'm not going to pretend I know exactly what sort of trade deals take place or exist, so I'm genuinely interested in what sort of deals the UK can potentially be missing out on now.

It's hard to imagine the UK on its own -- with its smaller economy -- having the leverage to get itself a better deal independently. It simply doesn't have enough weight.

This is just in the relatively immediate 5-10 year future, though. I think the long term prospects here don't get better. Any major world power like China, the United States, Japan, or a rising India, will put a higher priority on doing business with the EU rather than with the comparatively less important independent UK. And when they do decide to do business with the UK, it may well be on less equal terms than you might hope for.

Why a worldwide bloodbath if the EU fails? Are you talking in relation to economy or war, or something else? And why for any?

Remember how failures in 2008/9 in the United States triggered a meltdown we're all still trying to recover from? And recall that the EU's growth is already currently being depressed by slowing demand for goods due to China's recent slowdown. Hell, see how the world stock markets are in free fall today just because some votes were counted. The world is so intimately connected these days -- the Brexit is an attempt at independence, but there's no getting away from it entirely. If the EU fails, it's not going to be a simple mainland problem. It will quickly become the world's problem. And Britain will bear some responsibility for introducing more instability with this decision.

And again, it's the politicians', remain camp's and current government's jobs to drive that information through to everybody. They never did, though. Many leave voters have been very stubborn and set in their ways - with immigration issues firmly embedded into their minds, nothing you say would likely change their minds - but the effort on the part of the remain camp has been really poor, and hasn't done a good job of educating people on the matter at hand. 

A never ending sea of information is available to anyone with an internet connection, and while it can certainly be overwhelming to try to make sense of it all, thankfully we have experts who are trained on this sort of thing.

Now, this can often just make things harder if the experts don't agree, but there was almost a global-warming level consensus from anyone that mattered that Brexit was a bad idea. So sure, the politicians failed, but in my opinion so did the citizens of the United Kingdom.

The lesson here though is that the politicians can't treat people you're talking about -- ones who've directly been impacted by immigration/job loss -- with contempt and disregard. I understand lashing out with the only weapon at hand, but christ this won't do anything to help.

What mistake would that be? Is that the presidential elections? You don't have much hope whichever person you vote for. I'd hate to be an American having to decide between two evils.

Hillary vs Trump is actually a pretty simple decision: Hillary. I say that even as someone who has in some elections voted Republican.

I don't like her -- in fact it's kind of hard to like anyone with such a long career in politics not named Joe Biden. But my policy preferences actually align somewhat closely with hers, and I feel like she's significantly less likely to do something mind-numbingly stupid than Trump. And then there's an open seat on the Supreme Court which is actually vastly more important to the country's future than even the presidency, and I'd rather see a Democratic get that nomination to ensure continued progressive gains for things like gay rights, healthcare, gun control, and the preservation of net neutrality. 

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:27 by Guest )

Hmm, well, I did catch your post when you posted it, Tom, and although I can't remember it all now, I do agree with how outdated the current political system is and that it needs total reform, but that's something I've known for a long time and why I was adamant (and still am) that the only real massive change to the system can come from revolution and literally hordes of us taking it over through force. I want to believe there is a safer and better way. We just need to band together and do it.

I don't know if I'll ever vote tactically in general elections because I have too much pride for Wales and Plaid Cymru, but I know the system is flawed and needs to revert to a proportional voting system instead of first past the post. After last year's GE results, the flaws in the voting system were hot news and I thought something might be changed, or we at least would vote on it, but nothing.

I agree with even removing politicians altogether in a lot of ways. If the country were to start from scratch or all of Parliament gets wiped out (for lack of a nicer way of putting it), the types of people you would look to to get humanity off the ground again are indeed scientists, researchers and the like. Not rich public schoolboys who were born into their fancy suits and big houses just because they popped out of the right vagina. Because that's what the current houses of parliament consists of.

Anyway, thanks Jacob for putting some things into perspective. Do appreciate the info.

Even though I was a little on the fence to seeing what may be pros for the leave side, I wish I'd have voted remain instead of not voting at all, just to say I did, because I know it was the right thing to do in the grand scheme of things; the pros outweigh the cons, etc. Wouldn't have made a difference, and I was adamant I'd only vote for something I truly believed in, but I knew deep down it was the better choice and probably should have gone with my gut (although I did predict the result would be out anyway, given everyone I'd spoken to).

The aftermath and results are extremely telling, but can't say I didn't expect it. I'm not sure what the actual age cut-off point was, but Radio 2 had good info today, saying about 83% of "older" people turned out to vote, of which 75% voted out. About 35% of "young" people voted, which was greatly in favour of remain. Sorry I don't have exact numbers, but it was something to this effect and gives you a general idea. It shows how young people simply don't engage in politics or voting, just as the last GE proved. The older population once again turned out and have had their say in how the futures of young people will play out. We need educating on politics in this country. I feel like it's purposely made confusing and disengaging to keep young people from influencing things.

Radio 2's Jeremy Vine show was asking for people to call in if there had been any conflict between families over the votes, and there most definitely was, and it reminded me of my own family and the clashes we've had over it. Many sons and daughters voted to remain, whilst parents and grandparents were voting out, not listening to what their kids had to say and why remaining was better for them, instead being adamant that immigration was the sole problem and that they were doing kids a favour by "freeing up jobs" for them. Course, immigration won't stop, and immigration isn't as huge a problem as people make it out to be. Yes, there are definitely cases of it affecting people negatively (the lower paid building work I was going on about earlier), but it's astonishing how little research anyone did, thinking immigration was the main problem and not listening to the points the kids put across (I say kids, but many "young" people were that 18-30 range). Some young generations have fallen out with their parents/grandparents over it, and I do find it crazy how few adults ignored their children on this.

There was one 80-year-old "leave" bloke who called in to counter a 30-year-old remain voter, saying the older gen fought in the war for the freedoms "you lot" have, the right to vote etc, like it has any value to this vote. This is about the the future, not the past, the younger voter puts it. A second bloke called in with a good comment, saying his father also fought in the war, was a high ranking official, and became a Conservative politician after leaving the army. He passed in January, but always maintained that he'd abstain from voting in this referendum, saying it is not for the older generation to decide the futures of the younger generations. This is something Bob Geldof also came out with, saying it feels wrong he and other older people are allowed to vote in this, because it should be a vote for younger people. It is their futures at stake. All very interesting stuff, which I want to say I agree with, but at the same time find it difficult to say not everyone should be allowed to vote... That said, they should have let 16-17 year olds vote in this, like they did for the Scottish indyref. Definitely could have got a lot more remain votes there.

What's personally troubling is how Wales is one of the poorest countries in the EU and gets a shitload of EU funding to boost its quality of life. Ebbw Vale got a lot of EU funding and yet this town and Wales itself voted out "because of immigration." Ebbw Vale doesn't even have immigrants. If people thought Westminster and London would pay money into Wales after our EU funds go, they are kidding themselves. London doesn't give two shits about Wales and we'll have to fight for every penny we can get.

The thing is, this sort of info - how much funding Wales and certain towns get from the EU - should have been in our faces everywhere we went. Like I said, billboards, bus stop posters, etc. It was such an important issue that - especially with the brainwashing going on by shit newspapers like The Sun - the remain camp had to have known it needed to go all out. But I know Labour's leader Corbyn secretly wanted out of the EU, despite his party campaigning to remain, so clearly they half-arsed it all.

This is all just random musings in the aftermath of it all.

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:27 by Guest )

Also want to say how disgusting the racism that's unleashed itself across the UK after this vote is. It's given an excuse to be racist. This country is generally welcoming, but it still has a huge racism problem, and this is only exacerbated now after this referendum. It's like we're going back in time here. Truly a sad time right now.

In other news, Plaid Cymru's leader Leanne Wood is now pushing for Welsh independence to be put on the agenda, in order to protect our EU rights. It was always a long term goal, but has been pushed forward because of what's happened in the vote. I was going to join PC last year after the general election, but never did. Think it's about time I did tho. We've got too far to go to get to the stage Scotland is at any time soon, but I want to believe we can do it. The UK is united no longer and I can only see the union breaking up sooner than later.

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:27 by Guest )

I bet all the English who voted for leave are going to regret doing so, even if they're happy that according to some "strangers will be thrown out", I don't think it's going to bode well for them if Wales, Scotland and North Ireland are all out, as I've heard that there's talk of return of North Ireland to Eire. In the news over here, there were even talks of Londoners calling for a London independence, which I don't see happening though, and it could be the news here making a mountain out of what perhaps a handful of people on the street told them on the mic .

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:27 by Guest )

There's a lot of doubt in many "out" voters' minds after all this, but the majority of them are basically "tough shit; deal with it" and still don't realise the lies the of Leave camp. Immigration will hardly change, the NHS will still be fucked over, and the money we will stop sending to the EU won't be piled into the NHS or the poorest parts of the UK.

As a country, overall, Wales did vote to leave, which is really sad to see. So many outsiders have been like "what the hell happened in Wales?" Well, we're full of brainwashed idiots and lots of English settlers, particularly in the east and south. People asked the same thing after last year's general election, expecting Plaid to do far better, as it tried to follow in Scotland's independence footsteps. But so many regions are infested with rich, old, Tory-voting English, which dent any hopes we have of going independent any time soon. I'm not quite sure why Wales is so different to Scotland, but I guess it being a lot poorer as a country and tied to England in a far greater level in the past has meant English felt more inclined and easier to move to Wales, turning into the place it is today. But, with what's gone on after all this, the independence card has been raised, and this could be the very beginning of our path towards it.

I can't see Northern Ireland joining with the Republic, but the proposal was mentioned. I think there's too much bad blood there to even conceive that happening, so they may look for some alternative alongside Scotland to try to remain in the EU, whilst still being part of the UK. How, I don't know. This whole thing is incredibly confusing. Plaid's leader is calling for independence of all countries of the UK, not just Wales, but keeping some form of new unified relationship. The UK is falling apart. If Scotland and NI left the UK after all this, you're only left with England and Wales, and even that would only be a ticking time bomb until separation. I just can't see the union lasting much longer. It'll be years before it breaks up, I still feel, especially in Wales' case, but it's happening quicker than I expected because of the EU result.

As for London, well, the "City of London" is its own state anyway, and does what it likes, basically. But I couldn't envision it separating from the rest of the UK alongside Scotland and NI and joining back with the EU. It's definitely something that's been talked about, but more tongue-in-cheek than anything.

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:27 by Guest )

I'm not a UK citizen, obviously, but my thoughts are:

Self-governance is always preferred to government by foreign bureaucracies.

The UK has been a leader in human rights for decades, if not centuries. All of the ideas that the EU has now about human rights pretty much originated in the UK, going back to the Magna Carta.

The UK survived the London Blitz. The UK stood alone against the might of Nazi Europe and hardly buckled. Losing some subsidies isn't going to be that big of a deal, not in the grand scheme of things. Besides, economies adjust, and the UK having its own currency gives it now exactly the same economic authority within its borders that the US has within ours. Those who are saying the pound is destined to collapse advocate the U.S. currency--blatant hypocrisy on their part, as the UK can take the same steps the US did. I'm not a fan of inflation and fiat currencies, but the economists are being a bit hypocritical and misleading about it.

The current economic downturn, however minor it is, is what a self-fulfilling prophecy looks like. People expected the pound to slide, so they basically sold their UK assets. This pulled money out of the UK economy and caused the pound to slide. But as long as the UK citizens have faith in the UK, it's really not going to matter what speculative bets international bankers make.

I expect the scaremongering to get worse before it gets better, though. Until the UK formally declares its intent to withdraw, with the referendum being non-binding, I fully expect "some people" to do everything in their power to scare people into not going through with it.

I'm happy for the UK, though. No doubt, 250 years ago, there were plenty of colonists saying that it would be disaster if the colonies withdrew from the British Empire. Although the U.S. has done quite a lot of shady things, and many things that were outright evil, it remains true that withdrawing and pursuing independence worked out pretty well for us. And we know there were people back then (about 33% of the population) who were against it for those reasons, while a third were indifferent, and another third or so were for independence.

Being in the EU was like being married. Now the UK is single again. It doesn't mean that the UK can't still hook up with its old wife and have some fun, and it doesn't mean that the ex-husband and ex-wife have to hate one another, or be at odds to any degree. It does mean, though, that UK is free to "play the field" in its own best interests. I certainly see it as a good thing.

We've forgotten what created what, though. A desire to work together, to foster friendship, and to stop fighting is what created the EU; the EU didn't create the desire to work together, to foster friendship, and to stop fighting. Even if the EU dissolves, it won't lead to war, because the options aren't "Love the EU, or have World War 3." The EU also didn't create the UK's human rights positions; if anything, the rest of Europe got its human rights positions from the UK--an argument we can definitely make, if we wanted to be a tad demeaning (however justifiably) toward nations with particularly bloody histories that, presumably, now would surpass the UK in human rights. That's what strikes me as absurd, that Germany (a nation I have no particular disrespect for), who less than a century ago produced Hitler, is partially responsible for the current human rights record of the UK. That's silly--it's clearly the other way around.

I worry that the Leave campaign promised people things that it couldn't deliver, and I didn't expect the UK to vote leave. In the weeks leading up to it, I expected a Leave vote, but in the final days, comments on the websites I regularly visit were flooded with Remain comments, and Leave appeared to be an extreme minority. Going off that, I fully expected remain.

It seems to me that the younger generations preferred the EU for reasons I haven't really seen enumerated. "Because it's better to work together" seems to be the primary reason, but the EU isn't necessary for that. In fact, I would argue that the EU gets in the way of that.

One thing is certain, though. The UK doesn't need the EU shaking its finger at them, and threatening them with sanctions for the UK to be a champion of human rights. A lot of the fearmongering I saw suggested that human rights would just be thrown out the window following a Brexit vote, and I just don't understand that. The mentality seems to suggest that people think the UK people are bloodthirsty, violent, authoritarian jerks who must be held in check by the EU, and that's clearly never been the case.

But I'm going to stop here, because I could ramble about the subject forever, and have, actually, with a video, few podcasts, and few articles already about it. :/

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:27 by Guest )

no pain no gain...

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:27 by Guest )

As part of my day job I ran a politically neutral EU referendum programme to raise awareness and education around the debate and to make sure the voices of under-25s were captured, even if they didn't register to vote.

We developed an online opinion poll, did interviews with under-25s on the street, got any amount of media appearances, delivered sessions on schools and to youth groups, held two EU debates which were both livestreamed over Facebook, held pizza and politics drop-in sessions, and ultimately engaged with over 1,000 people. Of those who engaged with my programme, 63% say they would vote remain.

I still can't believe we voted for an exit from the EU when no alternatives were offered as to what life would look like outside of the EU and the majority of promises made by the leave campaign have since been broken, some within hours of the result being announced!

Ultimately, I'm not sure how much will change. If we want to trade with the single market we'll have to subscribe to the same rules and regulations we've just voted against. If we don't sort anything out after article 50 is triggered then we'll stumble automatically into the World Trade Organisation. Another group of unelected officials making trading rules and regs for us to follow...

British politics has had a Hell of a shake up in the last week with resignations left, right, and centre. Corbyn is fighting a losing battle within the Labour party, Cameron has resigned, Farage has resigned, Gove "et tu brute'd" Boris Johnson and we're now in a position where the people who called for the referendum in the first place have all backed down and gone into hiding - effectively wiping their hands of the situation. The focus on immigration has massively obfuscated the argument with some using it as an opportunity to justify their discriminatory views. In London hate crime has risen 50% in the 1.5 weeks since the referendum. And that is not just isolated to EU citizens. The result has legitimised racist and bigoted views across a small but vocal minority of our population. 

tldr; shouldn't have been a referendum in the first place, the public can't even be trusted to name an arctic exploration ship let alone solve an international trade dispute.

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:27 by Guest )

tldr; shouldn't have been a referendum in the first place, the public can't even be trusted to name an arctic exploration ship let alone solve an international trade dispute.

I'm astonished and pissed off at how quickly the lies came out, and how so many of these guys have left the scene altogether. I'm also not liking the candidates for the new PM job, either. Whether it's May or Gove, they are corrupt cunts who vote against inequality every chance they get.

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:27 by Guest )

I know this is a late reply, and I ask others not to revive a dead thread, but I felt I had to say something about this.

Now, I'm not a citizen of the UK, I live in the Netherlands, but I find myself almost fully in agreement with what you said, Az. Nobody seems to know what the Brexit will mean for the economy when it comes to foreign trade relations and such. Since the vote for the Brexit, some countries have already expressed that essentially nothing would change - they would still keep close ties to the UK and make sure trade goes about as smoothly as it did with Britain in the EU. On the other hand, many economists don't even seem to know what will happen - I'm guessing the reason why there was a referendum at all, is because the government has no clue and wanted the people's opinion on what's best.

I think the idea of a referendum is honestly terrible in the first place, considering the general populace has no experience or expertise in matters related to the economy, managing a country, or even social aspects. Referendums come too close to 'direct democracy' for my liking, and direct democracy is not something that should be used to decide the course of a country's future. It's the whole reason why we have representatives and checks and balances - voting for the people you want in power is fine. Letting the emotion-driven populace decide the fate of the entire country, is not.

Overall, I think YouTube user Sargon of Akkad put it very well in his videos and his debate with Thunderf00t. While we don't really know if Brexit is bad or good in the long term, the UK is well within its right not to want to be a part of such an oddly undemocratic institution. I think the older generation isn't stupid - they've grown up with the EU, and seen it become something it's (in their eyes) not supposed to be. They didn't vote for their own sake or because of 'racism'. I think many old people are technically actually less racist than many (SJW) college students. No, they voted for Brexit for the upcoming generations. They voted for Brexit because they thought it was the right course for the country, their children and grandchildren.

Whether we agree with the older generations or not, I think it's ridiculous that pro-EU people are staging protests in the streets just because they didn't like the outcome of the referendum. This is democracy, folks... I sincerely doubt that in a second referendum, there would suddenly be a majority in favor of staying. Sure, some people changed their minds after the vote... that's their own bloody fault, they should've informed themselves before making the vote. In the end, it doesn't matter anyway. 

Yes, I too think it would've been best to stay in the EU and ask for reforms to increase the EU's transparency. However, for all I know, the EU wouldn't care enough if the UK didn't make a stand with the Brexit. Maybe they can rejoin the EU somehow at some point, but in the mean time, vilifying people for opting out is petty.

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:27 by Guest )

Although a little late, here are the two cents of someone living in that small corner of the world called Greece. You know, that little country most people make fun of because of its economy? That one.

First of all, let me state that, after reading a lot of the posts in here, and after talking with a bunch of other European citizens, I realized that, despite our many differences, (especially when it comes to the differences between the north and the south), I feel that we are all pretty much in the same state.

Mass media here in Greece are constantly cherry picking the way the want to portray "us" and "them" and, last time I've checked, the same goes on with the rest of the world. In other words: divisive propaganda is alive and kicking as always. Most here in Greece believe that "the British are super-powerful, so they will only gain from exiting the EU, unlike us poor bastards," as if the British 1%, those who support them, and the simple British folk are one and the same. It reminds me of those articles from "your" media which go something like "the Greeks are destroying the EU!!!"

My thoughts on Brexit? For starters, we "simple folk" don't have the slightest idea of where either way will lead, and most, if not all, vote with the hearts and without being informed about things. My experience from here in Greece? Either way will only benefit the vultures that have something to gain from them, and no one else. We, the general public, are simply fucked.

PS: You can't spent a single hour in here without someone blaming non-greeks (especially Jews, Germans, and... Pakistanis), and, of course, "those evil gays and their agenta!" Does the same happen in the UK?

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:27 by Guest )

I think the older generation isn't stupid - they've grown up with the EU, and seen it become something it's (in their eyes) not supposed to be. They didn't vote for their own sake or because of 'racism'. I think many old people are technically actually less racist than many (SJW) college students. No, they voted for Brexit for the upcoming generations. They voted for Brexit because they thought it was the right course for the country, their children and grandchildren.

There's no doubt about it - the majority of people that voted were older generations, and the majority of them come from a very different time to the world we live in now, hence their racism. But it seems wrong that these people are able to decide the fates of the future generations. They won't be around to see what impact it may have. But I guess that's up to young people to engage and vote, too. But young people are so disengaged from politics as it is, it's so hard to do anything about that.

In the end, what Ofisil says above is true. Someone is profiting from all this somewhere. The EU itself is still a corrupt superstate as it is. I don't claim to know everything; I've been learning as this whole thing has gone on. But I do see where the benefits are in certain things on a personal level for my country and whatnot.

The damning thing is that the Welsh government is fighting with the UK to try and ensure that the Brexit leaders keep their promises of Wales receiving the same funding it gets now from the EU after the UK leaves officially. All the Brexit campaigners have abandoned ship tho, and the whole thing has gone tits up. So now we're all left to pick up the pieces of this mess and little old Wales is fighting the never ending battle with the UK government to get what it needs. It's just a shitshow.

Ofisil said:
PS: You can't spent a single hour in here without someone blaming non-greeks (especially Jews, Germans, and... Pakistanis), and, of course, "those evil gays and their agenta!" Does the same happen in the UK?

I was seeing some references to Greece before the vote here. Particularly from the Remain side that was referring to the Greece PM (I think he's PM; that left wing guy) who, despite all the problems going on in Greece, still fought to remain in the EU because he thinks it's still better to remain and change inside it than leave entirely.

( Edited 12.12.2016 17:27 by Guest )