Holy crap, a sonic topic without my two cents

Well, thats down to your taste in music - as you all know I love the music from all 3D sonic games - but the knuckles music in 2B is in a different style. It gives me a headache - I find listening to it so frustrating. You know, I always hate the type of gamer who turns the sound off while they play because IMO they only get half the enjoyment out of the game - but it was SO tempting to turn the sound off then. The rest of the soundtrack, as I said, is superb - especially the Tails theme - oh yeah, and the music to the first level.

You said about the storyline of games. Well, in my opinion, one of the best-presented stories of all time is Sonic Adventure. Its the way the story is told by seeing it through so many different angles - and theres so much depth to it its like nothing else. Its told better than any book or any film could tell a story.

General Random is right. We should not be arguing about the quality of the games that has ben done for us, and we have done it enough and obviously WE are still going to be in dispute about it.
Fact is you still love these games.
And I think what plays a huge part in this is that you are naturaly sonic fans, and from whats been shown to the extent of not being able to realise the games flaws. I was a huge 2d sonic fan but after a playing sonic adventure 2 and having the camera go haywire when I "accidentaly" get thrown into a wall (that happens a lot for some reason as if you are magnetised to the wall for a second) is not my thing. Having a game thats consistently good quality throughout is my thing.
Although these flaws are obviously not enough for you stop paying money for the games so you continue.
In your opinion the Sonic 3D games are great. Lets just keep it at that. I think we can safely say Metroid Prime is a great game, we cannot safely say Sonic 3D outings have been great games. So lets just keep it in your opinion or we shall be having this argument for many many weeks to come.

Well after what GR781 said he has convinced me to buy mario sunshine as iv been thinkin about it but im also going to get Sonic mega collection at the same time when its players choice

[ Edited by Blade2t3 on 2004/8/13 14:29 ]

Knuckle's levels in SA2B would've been excelent if it werent for that absolutlely crap music. I love the rest of the soundtrack - but the "music" on those levels makes me want to rip my hair out - its awful! *aaargh*!

I know what you mean, it's sorta like rap music type thing, can't stand it in real life, and this wasn't much of an exception.

Apart from the odd track, like Rob mentioned, Pumkin Hill had quite a good tune, so redeemed itself a bit, but yes the rest of the soundtrack was superb.

Did somebody mention FLUDD?

Yay! Three cheers for VGCats!

SMS had a better plot? Peach getting kidnapped again is a better plot? Sorry but the Ultimate lifeform subplot is a plot detailed and brilliant. And sunshine even ripped off the basic concept at the start:

A character named SHADOW the hedgehog is being mistaken for Sonic, and Sonic's getting the blamed for his crimes. This being the beginning of the plot which expands into Shadows true motives.
A character named SHADOW mario is being mistaken for Mario, and Mario is getting blamed for his crimes. This being the highlight of the plot.

And dont kid yourself, SMS had an awful camera as well. How many times did you have to adjust it? Too many to count, one particularly awful part was the shellfish secret. The camera there was god awful.
Also if you head forward you barely ever have a problem, now where in F-zero do you go backwards?

At least the hunting had a radar, in comparison there is no way to tell which of the trees on the first level contains 1/10th of a shine.

The levels were all the same not in the way you play but in the way they were presented. Half of them had a beach, two levels were villages. None of the genuis of tick tock clock which was a uniquely designed leveled.

Am I the only one that thinks Mario sunshine was a rush job made to please the fans, and fattened out with blue coins just to make their collection total the same as their prequel?

Finally you keep hearing the 3D sonics are not as good as the originals. Well who here can say that sunshine is anywhere near as good as the bros and world series'. Yet it's Mario, who cares. Mario could be in a terrible game, providing it was done by nintendo it would get high marks.

It's my opinion that SMS and Sonic Heroes are both above average games, but with the same fundamental flaws; irritating camera, frustrating areas in levels, patronising story, characters that Mother Nature would have never thought of in her wildest dreams (Bigs the Cat?! Cream the Rabbit?!? WTF!! Shadow Mario??! Good grief...) and not enough done or explored with the new ideas, and far too much just scraped from the past games (aka; SAB2 and Mario 64).

Basically, you have two games aimed at the fans. I'm a fan of neither, as I played both for about the same amount of time, got bored with both and had to get rid of them some way or other. (Sonic Heroes wasn't actually mine I might add, and I got grounded from the GC for a week because of the blasted thing, due to my playing the game to 2am in the morning trying desperately to find a bit I liked)

i get wat ur sayin i agree 3d sonic is pretty bad but heck comparing them to the old ones is like comparing F-Zero to F1 2003

i need a drink :pint:

But Sonic is a racing style platformer, it does have similarities with F-zero in that It's always about moving forward. If you do that in the 3D sonic's the camera is barely ever problematic. And there is a lot of skill involved in 3D sonic, even in heroes. Those that have tried Sonic's casino park 2nd mission or Chaotix's rail canyon 2nd mission can vouch for that.

I guess one of my main problems with this whole arguement is that when people review Mario games they have their red tinted specs on. When it comes to Sonic they have their sledgehammer ready to bring it down the slightest things.

On the subject of plot, a plot leads you, drives you to finish a game. You want to see how it ends, how the good guys beat the bad ones. It involves you more when you can feel for characters and their situations, even just a little. Now while I admit a game can be great without a plot, a plot is always welcome. Mario games have worked with plots before, Mario & Luigi and I think the paper mario series are examples of this.

SO sonic is about always moving forward. That doesent give them an excuse to have a dodgy assed camera if you arent going straight forward. Even then though the camera isnt great. If you have to stop or turn or hit a wall by accident the camera can go nuts. The moving forward action in heroes was also broken up really irritatingly all the time.

one of my main problems with this whole arguement is that when people review Mario games they have their red tinted specs on

Excuse me. One of my main problems having these arguments is that when you sit down to play sonic games you have your Blue tinted specs on. To the point that you can make excuses up for the shitty camera and the like. My god even Beam once said that the lack of graphical attention to detail in enemies and textures was due to the fact that you are supposed to be moving through the game so fast you shouldnt have to look. Excuse me at what point in smash brothers were you ever given the chance to stop and marvel at your character model and they still looked amazing!

Mario sunshine had a good plot. I was dying to find out who that shadow mario really was. We knew from the start however that Metal sonic was the evil new robot. Ok fair enough Sonic adventure 2 did have more of an epic plot, that was one of its redeeming features, of course it was one of the better 3D sonics.

I found the camera to be ok, the only trouble I'd have with it is when in tight spaces, once you get a feel for it it's easy to judge jumps etc. like for example on the space/rail levels in SA2, you could easily jump from one rail to another and for example, jump off a really high bit of the level onto a rail near the bottom.

all the camera problems I had with sonic I encountered with Mario Sunshine as well, the only difference being sonic is more unforgiving if you fall etc.

Layman's terms people.

Sonic in 2D = great gaming.

Sonic in 3D = average gaming.

People who say Mario 64 isn't genius = crack head.

Beam = world of your own.

There.

Those are solid facts. Now there is no need to defend these games anymore.

Since when am I not allowed to have an opinion about the games I like? Ikari's post is *opinion* which is no more or less valid than mine.

Yes, I live in a world of my own - but I can't help what I enjoy.

Sonic's 3D games lack the polish of Nintendo's games and that does spoil the experience sometimes I agree. But Sonic Adventure has fantastic gameplay - its such a huge game and theres such a variety of things to do in the game. It beats Mario Sunshine in terms of gameplay depth - but then it can't match Sunshine in terms of polish and perfection - and that in itself is important. So you can't really say which one is better - both are games that you must own on your GameCube for their own ways. Of course, Sonic dosn't get good reviews because magazine reviewers very rarely play the games they review - they just judge it on the graphics and follow what everyone else says. So just ignore them.

because magazine reviewers very rarely play the games they review - they just judge it on the graphics and follow what everyone else says. So just ignore them.

OK BEAM your comments have gone too far now. You have just taken the entire gaming magazine stafff population and just said they very rarely play the games they reveiw, that they just judge the game on the graphics and follow what everyone else says. NO Beam this is wrong.
Phantasy Star Online, despite its huge graphical flaws and dated look, AND expense to get online they gave this game a 90%. They looked beyond the surface and saw a structural masterpiece.
Maybe they do that in Nintendo Official magazine I dont know but it certainly doesent happen in, Cube, NGC, or Edge.

You are allowed your opinion, and so is everyone. Yes that was IKARI's opinion but its the opinion of so many people it can almost count as fact.

Yes, I live in a world of my own - but I can't help what I enjoy.

EXACTLY. You live in a world in your own and you enjoyed the 3D sonics! You enjoyed the 3D sonics therefore you defend them in arguments, you are in a world of your own therefore you get so entwined in defending these games that you can give excuses for all of the games faults AND make comments like this.

because magazine reviewers very rarely play the games they review - they just judge it on the graphics and follow what everyone else says. So just ignore them.

Well, NOM are relativly fair, but with Sonic Adventure DX they were swayed by the majority. I was mainly talking about magazines like CUBE.

Those are solid facts. Now there is no need to defend these games anymore.

that was IKARI's opinion but its the opinion of so many people it can almost count as fact.

NOM were not swayed by the majority! As much as I hate to admit it Magazines (even NOM to an extent) Have to be profesional. Just because you like the game BEAM doesent mean that Magazines are wrong all just going wiht the majority and saying games are bad to save time.

These games often go straight into the charts BEFORE reveiw, because these companies dont give the magazines an earlier copy to review before its release. People buy these games because it has FIFA written on it and its a FOOTBALL game thats all they see.

Magazines like Cubed reveiw games to show us if they are good or bad before we buy them. Without Cube,NGC, Or other magazines we would run out and buy games purely on hype and never know if a games gonna be good or not, I like to think (as a lot of people do) Cubed and NGC have saved us a lot of money on crap games.

Thank god Cube mislead people away from games like 3D sonics. If they had talked about them like you had then how the hell do you think I / and tons of other members would have felt after buying it. They gave a bad review because if they gave a good reveiw too many people (People who have made their opinions clear here) writing in and complaining that they over hyped this game.

I@ve enjoyed all the 3d sonics, the thing is, people compare games to each other too much.

people compare control systems to each other, and graphics etc. the thing is they have to deal with nostalgia warping peoples views and also people mix and match and say "that hasn't got as good graphics as whatever, and the controls in... mario 64 were better, and the sound is like whatever but worse".

I played through all of SA 1 and SA 2, I enjoyed it, therefore it is a good game to me. people without the tenacity to get good at the controls won't like it, thats a given, but saying its a dire game is not true. I see each game as a totally new experience, not to really be judge by what came before.

I'm with Leroy, if you read my SA2B review in the database (My first review, and worst one!) you will see I listed the games faults, as I know better, have seen better and played better. But they are GOOD games, not great, not amazing, just good. They were fun throughout, except for those scavenger levels , and that is really what counts.

Going back a bit, I found SMS' camera to be fine, there was only once where it failed me, and I remember this, as it was during a tricky manuvere, and was the first time it had ever happened. In SA2B the camera was pretty bad in places, in SH it had been improved a fair bit.

i dont compare the sonics i just fined the 3D ones to be crap games. It isnt enough to have a few good levels and then all the rest lame you just get bored.

[ Edited by Blade2t3 on 2004/8/15 19:24 ]

Thank god Cube mislead people away from games like 3D sonics. If they had talked about them like you had then how the hell do you think I / and tons of other members would have felt after buying it. They gave a bad review because if they gave a good reveiw too many people (People who have made their opinions clear here) writing in and complaining that they over hyped this game.

So why didn't they warn us that Mario sunshine was a terrible rush job saved only by having FLUDD as a unique tool. The levels were boring, the camera was just as bad as the 3D sonic's, and those blue coins .
Red tinted specs see, anyone who thinks SMS is worth 90% or 10/10 needs their head examined. It's good, not great or amazing, about the same as SH.

3D sonic's camera's are bad, but then it's the case for 90% of platformers, Sonic just seems to be singled out.

did you actually read the mags reviews of SH? one of CVG's cons was "It's naff" which is an opinion not a fact. NOM commented on the difficulty being random (yet not mentioning this for SMS). I could name more things wrong with SH than what CUBE did, and NGC seemed to be more bothered by Tails' voice than anything else. oh and OXM, the only non-nintendo specific mag I read, got loads wrong.