Sonic Adventure 2 Records

Skill is playing the game properly, the way it was intended to be played, efficiently. breaking good times without the aid of Glitches, as they are holes is the program the developers and testers overlooked.

An example of using Skill in a game is Sonic adventure, repeatingly using action makes you go faster as sonic, it's not a glitch cause some of the times require you to use the technique. Compare that to finding a corner you can walk through that finds you at the end of the stage.

you're right hunting stages are dependant on luck, but at the same time there is a way to get the emeralds skillfully. I usually break the level into down into areas, check each one looking for a signal. Then of course you have mission 5 of each level in which the emeralds are set and the challenge is getting to them.

using a glitch I found in Sonic CD i could get times of 0:00:00 in time attack.

Skill is playing the game properly, the way it was intended to be played, efficiently. breaking good times without the aid of Glitches, as they are holes is the program the developers and testers overlooked.

Far from a complete definition, or an accurate one for that matter.

According to that, players are limited to what the programmers designed and accommodated for. So no one's allowed to be creative, come up with any new solutions, because these people set absolute limits of mastery and anyone who manages to do anything more than these people decree is a dirty cheater because they're thinking too much.

You've also left yourself in the position of having to figure out what it takes for something to be classified as a glitch, which is necessary before a conclusive list of what would and wouldn't be allowed is assembled.

For example, in Pyramid Cave, there's a way of avoiding the first hourglass door altogether, and it saves about 5 seconds. This ability was certainly not put in intentionally, but if I showed you a video employing it, would you dismiss it as a cheat?

In a whopping 12 stages, it's possible to find the lost Chao without using a Mystic Melody. Only 2 of these can be reasonably thought of as possibly foreseen by the designers. As for the other 10, how legitimate do you see them?

The reason games like this have so much potential is because there is room for innovation all over the place. The programmers did not make a list of admissible techniques the moment the game was created, thereby declaring themselves indelible masters of this game based on nothing more than fiat, but instead made a 3-D free-range game that allowed the players to figure out just what could be done...and undoubtedly, much of it couldn't possibly have been known beforehand.

When you see timesavers like mine, they're extensions of this policy.

An example of using Skill in a game is Sonic adventure, repeatingly using action makes you go faster as sonic, it's not a glitch cause some of the times require you to use the technique. Compare that to finding a corner you can walk through that finds you at the end of the stage.

Nothing "requires" that, and "legitimate" and "required" do not you hand-in-hand. For example, Knuckles' Sunglasses are a completely superfluous item, and you do not need it at any point in the game. However, you can hardly blame someone for using them.

If a corner that lands you at the end of the level isn't allowed, what about one that manages to just skip one straightaway in the stage? Or two? How big is a shortcut allowed to be?

you're right hunting stages are dependant on luck, but at the same time there is a way to get the emeralds skillfully. I usually break the level into down into areas, check each one looking for a signal.

This only takes you so far.

You could describe my gameplan as a form of that "areas plan", but with 2 areas: "closest piece" and "too far". By the time you get this low, you HAVE to shoot only for the closest locations of all, or else there is no way you can get all 3 and beat the record. For example, most Security Hall layouts can be cleared in under a minute, but only a very few can be done in 16 seconds. If you have sparse pieces, there's no way you can beat the record...so why try? Restart and hope the new layout is more conducive!

using a glitch I found in Sonic CD i could get times of 0:00:00 in time attack.

That's not a glitch. That's Debug mode, and its effects are invariably shut out of topics like this for separate reasons.

I know that pyramid cove shortcut, it uses a ramp, spin dash and a well timed jump, i.e. skill. A lot different from walking through a wall. you can do a similar thing in emerald coast as Sonic on Sonic adventure and it cuts a few seconds. necessary to do it within the time limit of 2 minutes, without using the repeated action technique.

You do need the sunglasses for the hard mode emeralds, I know that for a fact. it makes certain springs appear that allow you to get to places unreachable otherwise. unless your using a cheat I cannot see how you can reach emerald like the one high above the church in pumpkin hill.

I'm pretty sure the developers don't want you to find walls you can walk through. They're there to prevent you doing things like that.

I'm siding with Masterhunter on this one. Exploiting a break in coding, basically a short cut that isn't meant to be there is no sign or showing of skill. You aren't doing the full course so your time becomes null and void. You want to show how good you are? Beat everyone while doing the ENTIRE of the course.

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

Read that, and if I need to explain any more later, then that's just what I'll do.

Who cares? As long as you get fun out of it, it doesn't matter, does it?

That was perhaps the biggest pile of crap I've ever read. The guy was basically trying to justify his cheating and him being an arse.

You think finding and exploiting glitches requires no skill? SM didn't just walk through a wall and end up at the CC goal ring with a time of 6:xx, he worked for it, albeit in unorthodox ways.

I mean, read that page which tells you how to do it. You probably won't manage the record time the first time you try. I don't think you could have thought out all those timesavers from stumbling upon the initial Chao Garden warp glitch.

And where do you draw the line between a shortcut that takes skill and a glitch that doesn't?

And also, SM's rules for this topic don't say anything about glitch exploitation. I don't know what DD is though. o.o So while you may like your TA competitions glitchless, this one isn't, kay?

Get over it. It isn't as if he's saying your glitchless runs are bad, just that its possible to get 6:xx which is uber cool.

Uber cool!

I personally would rather finish a level/game without using cheats. And on C3, all challenges are skill, not cheats unless stated. Welcome to C3, CosmicFalcon, Interact and Enjoy!

Hehe, thanks for the welcome Rob. Sorry to say that my first post was somewhat harsh.

So... er... hi.

Maybe I should try to actually get some decent SA2 times... or just some decent Sonic times altogether....

Compared to SM's times, mine arn't even worth posting!

But SSBM event match times are a different story...

Rob_F wrote:
I personally would rather finish a level/game without using cheats. And on C3, all challenges are skill, not cheats unless stated. Welcome to C3, CosmicFalcon, Interact and Enjoy!

Explain how "skill" and "cheats" are mutually exclusive.

Then explain how these procedures, which can be done perfectly normally in any version of the game (apart from those which take root in system differences), and without any indication (such as a Cheat menu) that they were actually designed to be cheats, can only be construed as "cheats" and not as "skills".

The burden of proof is on you in both cases.

???

did you even listen to what he said?

He was perhaps the first one to explore this mechanic so in-depth

This isn't your average glitch that you find in a guide

I know this following example isn't a glitch, but have you ever taken a look at the super mario bros 3 speed run? Did you notice what he does? He skips worlds 2-7!!!

Yet, people are amazed by this. If you notice, the guy who made this video is obviously very talented, and can perhaps be even classified as a gaming master. Anybody can warp from world 1-8, but the problem is actually doing the run! Can you do it as fast as he can?

Sadistic Mystic does the exact same thing. He alone managed to find a humoungus shortcut by investigating this glitch and how it works. And he alone managed to execute this time of 6 seconds..

So lets recap

Mario III speed run
-warps from world 1 to world 8
-executes the fastest path possible

Cannon's Core
-Warps from Tails to Sonic (after much more work then collecting 2 stupid ass flutes)
-Actually suceeds to run sonic's part in 6 seconds

I never said you agreed with the mario 3 speed run. I never said you didn't. But if you did see the mario 3 speed run, you most likely went like, whoa, or holy crap!

Now you see this, which is the EXACT same thing, and you call him an unskilled player?

I guess that guy who made the super mario bros 3 speed run movie is a big phony too

and so is that guy that made the super mario world speen run
and the super mario bros speed run
etc

[ Edited by NintenDan on 2004/5/26 22:14 ]

[ Edited by NintenDan on 2004/5/26 22:17 ]

^That was to masterhunter and the moderator guy^

and rob, he also did a run through the level normally

thats why there is a freestyle section at soniccenter

But SSBM event match times are a different story...

Try me...

I guess that guy who made the super mario bros 3 speed run movie is a big phony too

Actually, he is, but that's a different story.

Well I know what you mean SM

You know what I mean...

Know what I mean?

Event Match 1: 00:06:74.

Beat that!

Rob_F wrote:
Event Match 1: 00:06:74.

Beat that!

I don't think that's necessary, because your time is demonstrably fake.

how do you warp from Tails to Sonic? by using something that's NOT MEANT to be there. Doing sonic in 6 seconds is also practically impossible. I know you can feeze time but surely the final water run (in which there is no switch to freeze time) takes a good 10 seconds.

that site was a joke, it used fighting games as an example. Every gamer knows throws in any fighting game counters blocks.

Doing sonic in 6 seconds is also practically impossible. I know you can feeze time but surely the final water run (in which there is no switch to freeze time) takes a good 10 seconds

Reread the page. There's no need for a switch there.

that site was a joke, it used fighting games as an example. Every gamer knows throws in any fighting game counters blocks.

Go e-mail David Sirlin, and I guarantee he will laugh at you.

i think you're missing the point again. It's doing a game to the best of your abilities using techniques the developers want you to use. The developers don't want you to walk through a wall.

The Mario 3 video is a perfect example of both. the Warp whistles are meant to be used, the first one has a congratulations screen and the other has a separate room left for it. The developers purposely made them like that. However there is a point in which the player uses a glitch to go through a wall and cut a great deal of a level. The developers did not want that, otherwise there wouldn't be a wall it would be a gap. The good time is easily emulated without using that glitch, the life getting isn't but the overall time is.

Metroid prime is another example of this. the 2 hour thing. In Every metroid (I've played, which is prime, zero mission, super and fusion) you can use the bomb jump to effectively cut the game in half. It's really tricky but if the developers didn't want you using it they wouldn't have kept it in the later metroids.

i think you're missing the point again. It's doing a game to the best of your abilities using techniques the developers want you to use. The developers don't want you to walk through a wall.

RE: any game with secret walls

The Mario 3 video is a perfect example of both. the Warp whistles are meant to be used, the first one has a congratulations screen and the other has a separate room left for it. The developers purposely made them like that. However there is a point in which the player uses a glitch to go through a wall and cut a great deal of a level. The developers did not want that, otherwise there wouldn't be a wall it would be a gap. The good time is easily emulated without using that glitch, the life getting isn't but the overall time is.

According to authorities on the game, that video shows the player using TWO whistles in rapid succession, so that the level sequence goes 1->9->8, something only attributable to what you would call a "timing glitch". THAT is unintended, and there's no other way to warp from 1 directly to 8.

The wall warp was likely an unforeseen consequence of a collision detector; HOWEVER, that type of trigger must have been placed intentionally. It's all a matter of priority for when 3 objects collide: they chose to deal with it in a certain way, and regardless of whether they intended for the consequences in one specific case, the nice thing about programming is that you don't make a trigger for every separate case. You make one trigger, and that covers every instance of "object 1, object 2, and object 3 all collide at the same time".

Metroid prime is another example of this. the 2 hour thing. In Every metroid (I've played, which is prime, zero mission, super and fusion) you can use the bomb jump to effectively cut the game in half. It's really tricky but if the developers didn't want you using it they wouldn't have kept it in the later metroids.

Then let's look at mainstay shortcuts in other series. How can you speak for programmers, who leave no trace of their "intent" in their code, and selectively decide "this is intended/allowed", but "that isn't"?

Come back when you can explain that one.

at the back of my mind was secret walls. In earlier games it's hard to tell if what you are doing is intended or a glitch. Usually they lead to secret rooms which have items. Items being big clues that they were intentional, e.g. the warp whistles in Mario bros 3, or a big clue that is was intentional, such as congratulations screens.

however these were all in the days of 2D. Now we're in 3D the programs are more complicated and so there are more fake walls that weren't intentional. i guess it's down to your own judgement whether or not you've found an intentional secret or a glitch.

In Some cases though it's blatently obvious it's a glitch and not an intentional secret, much like the cannon's core glitch you've found. The way SA2 is structured is pretty tight for some levels. When the time limit for a level is 7 minutes and you do it in 6 seconds there's obviously something wrong there.

I actually looked up my battle times today and gave City Escape a go. best i could get was 2:42:42, miles off your 2:13:something. but looking down the list there are some close times and some miles off times. I take it you don't care about ranks when you play? my times were all done with getting an A as a priority.

at the back of my mind was secret walls. In earlier games it's hard to tell if what you are doing is intended or a glitch. Usually they lead to secret rooms which have items. Items being big clues that they were intentional, e.g. the warp whistles in Mario bros 3, or a big clue that is was intentional, such as congratulations screens.

Or there are some that are just plain shortcuts. Remember Marble Zone, act 3?

When the time limit for a level is 7 minutes and you do it in 6 seconds there's obviously something wrong there.

7 minutes is only the mission-4 limit; there's no way to complete m4 in 0:06. Fastest completion without the warp is 1:45.92, still a sizable way under that limit (almost 75%), but then we have levels like Sand Ocean (low 50s with a 4:00 limit, 78%) and even Aquatic Mine (0:12 into 3:30 = 94%+). The limits derived for mission 4 seem almost to be based on casual play, and should not be seen as difficult. Some may be able to go more or less under those targets, due to how applicable the high-level mechanics are in that level.

I take it you don't care about ranks when you play? my times were all done with getting an A as a priority.

I play for A rank exactly once on each level, and then I no longer need to worry about the A. If you're playing for speed, why worry about rank? It's not as though the game magically cuts off 10 seconds when you get A rank, and going for extra points is only going to throw you out of your path and waste some time.