The Uncanny Vally in Videogames :: My Look into the Wii VS PS3/360 (Long and 56k)

Sidepocket,

A great post, which has clearly encouraged some interesting debate .. I guess not all gamers are looking for the same thing that maybe you are ..

I am not sure if you have seen this :

DMM Demo/Technology

This could be used to generate *some* of the animations you mention. As you point out about Gollum, all of the shots where genuine emotions needed to be conveyed to the audience, key-frame was what was used and not MoCap .. but then that was the objective ..

Key-frame = expensive
MoCap = *much* cheaper - hence why it is used by Game developers, but it has it's limitations.

However, using your examples, a game like Gears of War isn't really about expressions and intricate animation of the characters - you're a super hero out to kick ass. You have a fairly "realistic" and destructable environment to run around in, good animation in terms of the vehicles etc, and acceptable (to the people who *enjoy* the game anyway) character animation ..

A game, say, like Zelda Wind Waker has much simpler graphics, but facial expression to convey mood - that was a key design decision Nintendo made.

GoW, Halo, Crysis are not primarily about having an emotional connection with the user - if folk will forgive me - those games are maybe too "macho" to go down that road .. Beautiful rendered graphics, explosions etc are where the developers are spending their time .. because for these types of game, that is what the audience is expecting to see - because a large number believe that is what constitutes as "Next-Gen".

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is probably a fitting phrase here ..

Maybe the reason you struggle to find the games that you are seeking is that there are so few that set out from the start to establish this emotional connection ??

IMO, fluid and realistic animation is a budget drain - and is a fine balance for developers to find.

Again, using your examples :

Polar Express Budget: $150,000,000 .. so what was their excuse ...
Shrek 1 Budget: $50,000,000
Shrek 2 budget: $70,000,000

Gears of War budget? $10,000,000 excl. Unreal3 engine license.
Crysis budget: $27,000,000
Halo3: $20,000,000 (ish !)

It always comes down to the money in the end ..

He's a complete hypocrite. I think he's forgetting that visual effects are what constitute emotion in CG.

You say we shouldn't be obsessed with things like normal mapping, bump mapping, the shader model. Well guess what. Faces would be pretty inexpressive if they were flat.

I started off thinking that it was a smart positive thread from the poster of a piss poor thread i just came from (The xbox live being rubbish one). However now i believe that its another piss poor thread .

The first thing i would like to stamp all over, is the fact that (hard to make out, you seemed to waffle a bit) you think that Rayman and Wario are "emotional" characters you can feel a reaction for... yet you slate games like Gears of War which is one of the most "emotionally interactive" games iv played in a year. Sure you can say that the main characters eye-brow is not raised at the far end when hes meant to feel anger (or something equally near pointless) but the game overall, with the character and world design, direction of story telling, sound and graphics - it all comes together to a fantastic package that is without a doubt one of the best examples for movie-to-game comparisons.

If you can truely watch one of the cutscenes, like the end on you commented on, after playing the fast paced action to come to a climatic end, with fantastic composed background music to add to that final moment - perfectly streamed to a final cutscene to sit and enjoy... and comment "he always looks the same" when he seriously does not. GET OUT OF GAMES. Go, Run, There not for you. The world does not need another fanboy, we have too many.

It's easy to sit on the sidelines and poke and prod on the most tiny little small things you would like to be different, but lets face it, are you going to be the one to make a game with PICTURE PERFECT, to everyones idea of "Perfect" standards? - No, im guessing you are not.

Im a games programmer that works with game designers and i know what you are expecting is nigh impossible, and i know if you can look down on the fantastic work that epic did with Gears of War, you will not be pleased with anything for many MANY years to come.

Bump mapping, Lighting, Pixel Shading, etc etc - It is all coming together to make games surpass any "gamers" dream. And any true gamer would agree, who gives a shit about game and movie comparisons, there totally different media's.

Look at the above picture, UT3, that is game design and programming at its best - I dont like the style of UT myself, i dont like the game either, but im not dumb or ignorant enough to deny that THAT is a piece of art, game heaven of 2007. And i respect it far more than Shrek, Shrek II or Shrek III.

Facial animation is far more complex than a movie, its never scripted to be EXACTLY the same every single moment, its a game, it changes randomly when the user wants - do you think anyone would care about a facial engine, would they pay HUGE licence fee's for "Face Engine Bleh" and cut a bit out of there budget, losing the Havok Engine, or going from Unreal 3.0 to 2.0 Engines - Not any time soon.

I noticed you said you found games that fit what you expect, could you name me a list please so i can rip and tear it apart?

God, look at me, iv waffeled nearly as much now . Guess i feel a bit strongly on how beautiful i think the crop of next gen games truely are.

( Edited on 23.02.2007 01:15 by Wo33eR )

A great post, which has clearly encouraged some interesting debat

Sidepocket has a load of half formed opinions, we try and show him, he goes all stubborn and assy.

( Edited on 23.02.2007 01:57 by Frazzle.d )

Yeah thats a fantastic strip by VG . Loved it when i saw it, bloom is the largest issue with new game designs. Tony Hawks Project 8 is dangerous with it.

Grumbler said:

A great post, which has clearly encouraged some interesting debat

You didnt read the thread then. Its a load of shite. Sidepocket has a load of half formed opinions, we try and show him, he goes all stubborn and assy.

I read the thread .. and there's nothing wrong with having opinions - even "half formed" ones is there ..

It's a subjective area anyway - always has been and 10 years from now, it'll still be going on

There's everything wrong with half formed opinions.

Spot on.

The Rabbids are the reason that Rayman RR is so fun. The game is full of character and little touches.

Its one of the reasons ive tired so quickly of the "Sony" genres.

Grumbler said:
Theres everything wrong with half formed opinions.

I'm new here and don't have the history of the folk who post here like you have.

I would agree with you IF the person is not fully informed, draws an opinion and then blindly sticks with it.

Gr's like butter; He's on a roll!

Star for you, mister guitar.

I'm also having trouble finding his theory that everyone has a certain set of identical facial expressions anything but ridiculous...

GR781 said:
Im going to Oxford to study Philosophy Politics and Economics when I argue about all things that fall under those fields on here, but I dont, because my argument should stand up for itself, and thats just annoying.

Errr, well to the topic discussed. All the waffling was hard to penetrate but I get the general jist of your argument: that not enough attention is paid to character animation and that the gaming industry appears to be more concerned with making games photo-realistic than better animated. Of course I like to see good animation in games, we all do. So I'll just say a few things.

1) You can't really compare CGI films to games. It doesn't strengthen your argument in any way. Both are different medias, CGI production teams usually have bigger budgets and don't have to contend with the same limitations that the production of games has to contend with (e.g the capabilities/specs of the hardware the game will be played on).

2)

We get the same sort of thing in videogames. Have you notice when you look around with a gun in a First Person Shooter your aim is always pixle perfict strait even when running at full speed. Try aiming a gun in real life. Look at the way you are holding the gun and how it shifts around while still being aimed at the target zone.

3) You point out some imperfections in the expressions of a character in the Polar Express saying, basically, that this means that he was poorly designed. These screenshots representative of the entire movie are they? And even if they were, so what? How does it prove your argument? They're just facial expressions.

4) Everyone agrees with you that animation is important. We all know that motion capture itself is limited, and that the result has to be tweaked and rendered for it to look more realistic and natural. I'm all for improved animation. If you had just said that developers should focus more on animation and gave relevant examples as to why they should then it would have better (if a little obvious).

Ultimately, though, you're just preaching to the choir.

Slydevil said:
Sidepocket, why do you insult anyone who disagrees with you?

Hmmm...

knighty said:
Play some better games.And...I mean...ffs, lighting is one of the prime things that conveys a good atmosphere, now you want to stop them improving it?!I hate fanboys who think betters graphics = worse everything else. ( Edited on 21.02.2007 19:40 by knighty )

Grumbler said:
Oh my...Why for the love of god are you comparing a cut scene in Gears of War to a scene in Saving Private Ryan? Have you ever played Gears of War?Its a game where you control a ridiculously butch man and shoot aliens who come from underground...Go away, play some fucking games!I suppose we shouldnt expect any more from a person mysteriously sporting a network adapter in their signature...

Maybe because other forum members, and the strange entity called Grumbler who apparently is 77 years old and has gained some sort of celebrity status so he can act and say whatever pleases him, insulted him first?

Na, Sidepocket does it on everyone of his threads, of which there's a lot of. He either goes on a spree of insulting the English or Cubed3.

Melainon said:
I'm a bellend.

If you'd seen all the other rubbish he's posted in the past, you'd understand.

Mind you, people who come along and make posts like you've just done are usually alt accounts...

Grumbler said:

Melainon said:Im a bellend.

If youd seen all the other rubbish hes posted in the past, youd understand.Mind you, people who come along and make posts like youve just done are usually alt accounts...

Thank you, it's always nice being called a penis. By the way, what do you mean by "alt account"? EDIT: I found out. Why would I make a seperate account to post my opinion?
Okay, he has posted a lot of other rubbish in the past, sorry then, my mistake. I didn't take the time to read all his other posts, which clearly I should have done.

EDIT: I would like to apologise for calling Grumbler a "strange entity", its just that I thought the replies seemed so unfair and hostile, and I had to direct my rage at someone. Sorry.

( Edited on 25.02.2007 12:00 by Melainon )

( Edited on 25.02.2007 13:01 by Melainon )

As you can see, I have pritty much abandoned this thread because it is very obvious you people will not get it. I should not expect people who have no idea what animation is to get it. It would be explaining quantum physics to a bunch of normal people on the street.

The Polar Express was just bad animation. Deal with it. It was noted for that not only in the Animation Comunity, but in the box office, directors and critics alike. Even the animatiors who worked on the movie said they were frustrated and wish they had a second chance.

In short, we need to improve our animation in videogames. Sudy the quirks of movement of real people, see why people are people and not just robots.

Sure, there are diffrences between the two mediums, but the judgment is stil the same. Infact, the closest you will get to this kind of emotion acting is Metal Gear Solid. The reason: Kojima studied as a movie director before he worked in videogames. He understands characters, movement, acting and personality.

They player is not just playing someone who is saying he is Snake. The player is playing Snake. There is a diffrence.

Oh, and the reason why I attack like that is because people attack me first. It would be one thing to say "Interesting thread, but I dissagree with you." and "Go play some FUCING VIDEOGAMES YOU FUCKING ARSE AMERICAN SHIT DOUCHEBAG!!!!"

This is why I hate Cube3 sometimes. Put it this way, the people at nSiders who are normaly younger than you are more MATURE than most people that post on there.

There is also alot of nationalism. Lots of it. Its maddneing.

But I guess that is life. Saddly unlike life, I cannot punch you in the face if you are being mean to me.

LOL

You're the only one that brings up your being American, ever. You're bloody obsessed. You're obviously just one of those people that whenever they get in a hole they just
try and make out that you're being discriminated against, how pathetic is that?

I know you as, the guy who thinks we don't like his weird threads because he's American, when really it's because they're rubbish.

Wo33eR said:
I started off thinking that it was a smart positive thread from the poster of a piss poor thread i just came from (The xbox live being rubbish one). However now i believe that its another piss poor thread .The first thing i would like to stamp all over, is the fact that (hard to make out, you seemed to waffle a bit) you think that Rayman and Wario are emotional characters you can feel a reaction for... yet you slate games like Gears of War which is one of the most emotionally interactive games iv played in a year. Sure you can say that the main characters eye-brow is not raised at the far end when hes meant to feel anger (or something equally near pointless) but the game overall, with the character and world design, direction of story telling, sound and graphics - it all comes together to a fantastic package that is without a doubt one of the best examples for movie-to-game comparisons.If you can truely watch one of the cutscenes, like the end on you commented on, after playing the fast paced action to come to a climatic end, with fantastic composed background music to add to that final moment - perfectly streamed to a final cutscene to sit and enjoy... and comment he always looks the same when he seriously does not. GET OUT OF GAMES. Go, Run, There not for you. The world does not need another fanboy, we have too many.Its easy to sit on the sidelines and poke and prod on the most tiny little small things you would like to be different, but lets face it, are you going to be the one to make a game with PICTURE PERFECT, to everyones idea of Perfect standards? - No, im guessing you are not.Im a games programmer that works with game designers and i know what you are expecting is nigh impossible, and i know if you can look down on the fantastic work that epic did with Gears of War, you will not be pleased with anything for many MANY years to come.Bump mapping, Lighting, Pixel Shading, etc etc - It is all coming together to make games surpass any gamers dream. And any true gamer would agree, who gives a shit about game and movie comparisons, there totally different medias.Look at the above picture, UT3, that is game design and programming at its best - I dont like the style of UT myself, i dont like the game either, but im not dumb or ignorant enough to deny that THAT is a piece of art, game heaven of 2007. And i respect it far more than Shrek, Shrek II or Shrek III.Facial animation is far more complex than a movie, its never scripted to be EXACTLY the same every single moment, its a game, it changes randomly when the user wants - do you think anyone would care about a facial engine, would they pay HUGE licence fees for Face Engine Bleh and cut a bit out of there budget, losing the Havok Engine, or going from Unreal 3.0 to 2.0 Engines - Not any time soon.I noticed you said you found games that fit what you expect, could you name me a list please so i can rip and tear it apart?God, look at me, iv waffeled nearly as much now . Guess i feel a bit strongly on how beautiful i think the crop of next gen games truely are.( Edited on 23.02.2007 01:15 by Wo33eR )

Sorry, but as both a gamer and game designer/animator, I am in compleatly oposit of you.

Gears of War had amazing rendering, good gameplay and bla bla bla. However, like all games, it did have its flaws. Bad and paper thin storytelling, flat voice acting, and lame character animations.

Just because you have an opinion means nobody else can? Pathetic. I try to argue my opinions, but at least I know I am not going to convice everyone. Look outside your bubble man.

Anyhow, I had spoke to Cliffy B and others, the reason why I bring up film is because that is what they want games to be. They want to create the next Jurassic Park, Saving Private Ryan, Star Wars, ect. And they all say the same thing, they do not know how to do it.

Some of them have realised wich was talked about last year, it is not about the look, its about the feel.

The folks who talked about Assasins Creed at GDC last year did a huge peice on this. They said they could render the game 10 times better than they are going to ship with but they are not. Instead, they wanted to use the next-gen power on the animation and AI. Its really shows.

Climing every surface up a latter VS having the AI realise a path up a wall and then animates the avitar to realisticly clime up the wall. Peoples jaws droppend, and that is why I knew how people felt just like we did during X06.

So sorry man, to me Gears of War while interesting was not up to snuff. Sorry man, hopefully you will not come back with some comment were you wine like a baby or something.

Sorry, as someone who studied animation and directing, Gears of War is not cinmatic. Its rendered beautifully, but its not cinimatic. Cinimatic comes with direction of story, character and framing....it has nothing to do with per-pixle lighting and normal mapping.

Ask any Director if you happen to meet one. I have, they say the same thing.

Couple more points.

I did not do those edits on the Polar Express. A friend of a friend did and after seeing the movie I agreed. I have also spoken to the people at Dreamworks who made this thing. The Animatiors has little involvement, they were fighting the director to hand animate the characters but the directors said no. That is why Polar Express is less expressive than Shrek wich is done by the same team.

Here: http://wardomatic.blogspot.com/2004/12/polar-express-virtual-train-wreck.html

http://wardomatic.blogspot.com/2004/12/polar-express-virtual-train-wreck_18.html

Second, I love how one poster called me a Fan Boy. Yet the context in wich he used it, he obviously has no idea what it means.

Fanboy or fanboi is a term used to describe an individual (usually male, though the feminine version fangirl may be used for females) who is utterly devoted to a single fannish subject, or to a single point of view within that subject, often to the point where it is considered an obsession. Fanboys remain loyal to their particular obsession, disregarding any factors that differ from their point of view. They are also typically hateful to the opposing brand or competition of their obsession regardless of its merits or achievements.

I am arguing my statements, I am saying that Gears of War had good points and bad points. Good game designers do the same thing, otherwise there would be no improvement.

The poster above would be a fan boy, because he is saying that Gears of War is perfict when no game or movie is perfict. You are also telling me and other to go fuck off instead of lissening to other views of the same subject. Even if you do not agree, you do not grudening push off of people.

In short, I will stop being a "fan boy" when you people do. The world is not black and white, deal with it.

( Edited on 26.02.2007 20:59 by Sidepocket )

It's a bloody GAME. Not every game tries to be cinematic, even if it's being marketed as such (like Gears was). You fell for the rediculous marketing? The advert with that rubbish song that was so out of place it hurt? Well, sucks to be you.

This is how it should be:

So arguing that Gears of War isn't cinematic is just retarded for a start. The story is shite, the dialogue is intentionally bad and full of Unreal Tournament references. The voice acting is actually done pretty well, so far as "Oh shit, here they come!", and "eat shit and die" can be well acted to 'bring out emotion'.

It's just a really fun game where you shoot stuff and laugh at the stupid characters, which has very swish graphics, nothing more, nothing less.

Having better animation would not affect the experience even slightly.

GR781 said:
For the record, genius, I am American.Fact of the matter is, we arent animators, if you want a talk with fellow animators, TALK ON A FORUM DEDICATED TO IT.We arent idiots and we arent immature, we just dont agree with you. You need to learn to accept debate and argument, and face up to the fact that on this forum making a long post doesnt necessarily mean that people will worship at your feet. I think I speak for most when I say that we dont appreciate being talked down to, and that if you hate this place so much, you can post elsewhere. ( Edited on 26.02.2007 20:43 by GR781 )

Tisk Tisk, such hostility.

The people on nSiders dissagreed with me, but the points they brough up were valid and were not hostile like you people put it. And most of the people on nSiders are under 18.

Also, did I say you were british? WTF did that come in? Personally, I do not care what you are, as long as you are not rude and idiotic. Saddly, you do not meet those qualifications.

Best GoW advert edit ever And that's saying something since there are several billion on youtube...

I always thought the advert was rather good myself though.

edit: Maybe because the people on the nsiders forums are morons with no views of their own. 'tis the nature of Nintendo fanboys after all. There is a reason Nintendo fanboys are known as sheep.

( Edited on 26.02.2007 21:03 by knighty )

Not every game should be cinematic, but when you clame you are going for a cinematic experiance with a good story...well, then do not print lies. Duh.

The reason 'Bad world' was applied to gears is because it refers to Sera and what has happend to it after the locust attack.