Revolution - graphics wise

Well, im happy to be corrected on the first matter. Although the fact that Sega were the only people able to get the full power does mark PS1 as the more capable 3d machine in terms of end results; if only because the Saturns architecture nightmare stopped developers making the use of the extra power.

Its certainly true about Sony's spec sheets, particularly with PS2 and PSP. The lower numbers make it likely that the gap between demo and game is smaller on PS1, but still different of course.

heh... a quad is still a polygon! But its right that the Saturn suffered majorly on being forced into triangles; or through coders who were useless at quads.

That right about Capcom, the Marvel VS SF / Capcom games were never as good on PS1 as its 2d architecture and ram capacity simply wasnt enough to render the complex large scale sprites required.

Dreamcast was a wonderful machine. I havent used one for a while, but when it first arrived in Comet I used to play on it a lot. The colours were almost Cube quality, not the dull washed out style of most PS2 games.

Dont forget that the seven out of sync CPU cores are also bundled with what is essentially a PC graphics chip that needs frantic optimisation... whilst 360 and RV are using less powerful custom chips that will probably end up producing the same results cheaper AND easier.

( Edited on 06.03.2006 10:11 by RobTheBuilder )

Well, im happy to be corrected on the first matter. Although the fact that Sega were the only people able to get the full power does mark PS1 as the more capable 3d machine in terms of end results; if only because the Saturns architecture nightmare stopped developers making the use of the extra power.

Oh, of course. I think I said something to that extent, also. It's becoming ever more important to make your console developer-friendly, especially if you're not Sony.

Shenmue Saturn

hmm, if it is what i think you mean, i have a game called shenmue zero on my computer it's a shenmue game with gaphics thats aren't great but good enough to play, that could possibly a demo or the finished or beta version of shenmue saturn.

Ever wondered why Dreamcast games don't look ten times more jagged than PS2 games

Well to be perfectly honest i do like ps2 but i know how crap the graphics potential in it is comparing it to the cube even that beats it, even the dreamcast beat it in terms of graphics and such, i mean look at shenmue, was an amazing game it's graphics and everything, the main reason i think dreamcast failed was because of the lack or advertisment, i mean i was lucky enough to know it existed.
Many people today think it is a great console and wanna buy it, sega truely were amazing back in the day.

*Yes, I'm aware that Quake II made it to the PSone in it's twilight years. However, Quake II is a completely different game, the PSone version of which is fucking awful, and not even comparable to other versions.

You got that right for sure, i have Quake II on N64 and it definalty looks alot better on N64 than the old ps1

the main reason i think dreamcast failed was because of the lack or advertisment, i mean i was lucky enough to know it existed.

Saturn with the RAM cartridge had as much RAM as an N64 with the Expansion Pak installed!

Where the floor appears to warp when it gets to the bottom of the screen, ruining the 3d effect.

As shown in this handy diagram:

What? They bought advertising on Arsenal's shirts. You don't get much more advertising-to-the-casual-gamer than that.

True, but i see more nintendo cube adverts than i ever saw of the dreamcast all i ever saw was about one! and that was on release day

I've never seen a single cube advert ever apart from one Pikmin one. they must have all been during CITV or something 'kiddie image reinforcing' like that.

( Edited on 06.03.2006 18:58 by grumbler )

Well i haven't seen a staggering amount admittly gaming adverts seem to be not allowed on tv and if they make it normally not allowed a massive promotion. But makes no sense how they can have sexual adverts but hardly any gaming related adverts.

I have seen quite a few cube related adverts around lunch time on saturday on sky channels and also just in general, i saw one for cube release alot, and i saw ones for a couple of games pikmin and pokemon is one of them.

But the dreamcast didn't seem to advertise much.

There was a tone of ads for the GC when it was released, you couldn't turn on the TV withought seeing one, but then it all died down.

hmm, if it is what i think you mean, i have a game called shenmue zero on my computer it's a shenmue game with gaphics thats aren't great but good enough to play, that could possibly a demo or the finished or beta version of shenmue saturn.

*shudders*

No, Shenmue Zero is just a rubbish fan-made PC game, 'set' before Shenmue I. Shenmue Saturn is a video of the original Saturn version that was quite a long way into development, which got canned in favour of a Dreamcast version. You got the video after completing Shenmue II (on both Dreamcast and Xbox versions). Someone has since ripped the video to PC, and put it up on the web. Google it, its everywhere. It looks a million times better than Shenmue Zero

I thought the Saturn RAM packs were just cheap battery powered alternative to normal memory cards. I'm probably wrong.

Nope. While you could get memory cards that came in a cartridge, to (funnily enough) put in the cartridge slot, some games came with a RAM Expansion cart (mostly 2D Capcom fighters).

I think Iwata (or was it Miyamoto) made a good point in a recent interview I read over at IGN or something, talking about a saturation point. Once you get to a certain point it doesn't matter how good it looks. Sure graphics are important because of initial attraction and immersion but you get use to them. I think Nintendo is on the right track with the Revolution, making it developer friendly.

That would be Miyamoto.

I remeber seeing how bad The world is not enough was on the PS1 comparied to the N64, and seeing that the wall looked like the diagram that grumbler did.

The PC version of MGS versus the original is beautiful for the simple fact that it has no jagged texture and poly warping bollocks. The areas and textures are comparable to twin snakes, it's just that the PS1 chews them up and spits them out whatever way takes the least memory.

I remember pointing out the horrid warping to all my ps1 fanboy friends (when I was an N64 fanboy at the age of 9) but they simply couldn't see it or chose to ignore it. Now that I have a Saturn I can see that the 3d is so much more stable.

Anyway back on topic, I'm fully behind Nintendo's graphics policy, I just hope they make the rest of the system of a next-gen standard as you simply cannot compromise in these areas.

( Edited on 07.03.2006 16:43 by grumbler )

I remeber seeing how bad The world is not enough was on the PS1 comparied to the N64, and seeing that the wall looked like the diagram that grumbler did.

Wow. Warping is one thing, but 1-Bit? Awful.

..?

There's a joke there somewhere, I'm just not smart enough to see it :-/

Nvidia's 7900GTX will be released soon, PC 'for the win'?

When. Answer. Now.

There's a joke there somewhere, I'm just not smart enough to see it :-/

I suspect that it is the joke and not you at fault here.

Frazzle: Clicky. 9th March.

( Edited on 07.03.2006 18:11 by Rob W )

Oh I see, the lesson to learn from this is:
anything + maths = doomed joke

There are 10 kinds of people in the world...

You see I've already lost count, and this isn't even in binary.

No, Shenmue Zero is just a rubbish fan-made PC game,

Oh, just wondering although i suspose it makes sense considering the graphics were rather poor, but thinking of it back then the graphics could of been like that, but like you said they were good.

And everyone says how saturn wasn't developer friendly but neither was the ps2 yet most games seem to be released on it still.

And everyone says how saturn wasn't developer friendly but neither was the ps2 yet most games seem to be released on it still.

The PS2 could afford to be less developer-friendly, because the year 2000 was a very different gaming climate, and Sony were at the top of the gaming mountain. In other words, the Saturn wasn't developer friendly, at the wrong time, by a company who weren't in a position do do whatever they wanted.

Basically, yes the PS2 was a bitch to develop for, initially, but that was the only thing that developers had to wrap their brains around. Imagine being in 1993, creating a game for a machine called the Saturn (which would be out for the following year). This is the first 3D gaem you've ever made. So the entire process is completely new, and is made a thousand times harder by the Saturn's complex architecture.

The PS2 didn't suffer in the same way, because like I said, you couldn't NOT make games for Sony's new machine, but it was also a different gaming climate. 3D gaming was, by this point, very much ingrained in every developer. They knew exactly what they wanted to do on PS2, they just had to get it to work.

Early Saturn developers probably spent much of their time just DECIDING how a 3rd-Person action game (or whatever) should control. Where should the camera be? Should it move? Should it be static? What level of control do you have over your character? Can they climb things (if so, where should they be able to clim, and how are we going to implement this)? How do you aim at your enemies? How are we going to animate everything?

These questions, and a million more like them would be going through early Saturn (and PSone) developers' minds. These were real headaches for them. It's not suprising that most of them didn't take the extra headache of the Saturn hardware very well. If your hardware is doing completely new things, you've got to make it easy for developers to take advantage of the stuff. The Saturn didn't.

It would've been better for SEGA if they made the Saturn lovely to develop for, and the Dreamcast a more complicated affair. They would've won support (both developers and consumers) when it counted, which would've carried over to the current-gen, which hasn't really done anything new, just done everything that the last gen did, only better (hence lesser need for being developer-friendly, this gen).

Am I making sense?

Yeah, i see what your getting at and it does make sense, although i would of though sega at the time were at the top of the market they had the most support they probaly just started to lose it when the ps1 got so much support