News: Will Xbox 360 top Nintendo Wii for Current Generation Crown? Page 1

crackedthesky 15.01.2013#1

2017 seems like a random year to go by, especially considering Sony and Microsoft will probably have new consoles out by the end of 2014, and Nintendo already does.

Also, what's with those totals? All three systems have already sold a hell of a lot more units than that.

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Azuardo 15.01.2013#2

I assume they predict 2017 will be the year they stop producing the consoles.

And the figures are US, not worldwide.

Edit: Although I'll take that back for now because I'm trying to find total Wii US figures, and they put it at more than this estimate already. But the current PS3 and 360 figures are a lot less than the future estimates. Bit confusing.

( Edited 15.01.2013 01:38 by Azuardo )

crackedthesky 15.01.2013#3

Azuardo said:
I assume they predict 2017 will be the year they stop producing the consoles.
And the figures are US, not worldwide.

Ah, makes sense on the totals then, but that's a pretty shallow reading of the industry, since their prediction is within a small enough margin that worldwide totals would still have the Wii well above the Xbox.

It also doesn't take into account how a lot of great games came out for Xbox in 2012, and how no games came out for Wii in 2012. Not even exaggerating, I think three games came out for Wii in the US last year, and all pretty early on. There's no reason to suspect it's a trend that will continue, and every reason to suspect it's because Nintendo was focused on their next system.

But hey, the whole "winner" idea is stupid anyway. I think in 2017 Microsoft and Nintendo will have little reason to care how either of those consoles is doing. And I already own both, so I win either way Smilie

NNID: crackedthesky
My blog, mostly about writing: http://www.davidjlovato.com

Azuardo 15.01.2013#4

It's a prediction on the overall US winner, though, not worldwide. But of course, it matters very little in the grand scheme of things. Just something to ponder over.

But I made an edit above. I was looking for current Wii US total sales and they put it higher than the US 2017 estimate in this article, so I'm not entirely sure what the real Wii US figure is right now. Wiki says 45 million.

But, it could be higher or lower, and it wouldn't matter. What I find interesting if the Wii US figures are around the 40-45mil mark, is that they are predicting incredibly low sales of the Wii from now till 2017. Seems odd.

( Edited 15.01.2013 01:44 by Azuardo )

crackedthesky 15.01.2013#5

The guy giving those numbers also said this:

"In reality the decline has mainly been due to the aging console systems and more importantly because of Nintendo's collapse," DFC continued. "Unlike Microsoft, Nintendo has been in a major downward cycle."

Nintendo is nowhere near collapsing, being the only console maker to turn a profit on consoles for the entirety of that generation, not to mention how ridiculously successful the Nintendo DS has been and continues to be, and the 3DS picking up steam. The Wii U is performing exactly as Nintendo estimated it would, and their stock has been rising since the Pokemon announcement.

He also claims "many" Wii U systems were sitting on shelves at the end of the year, which is also not true. It's still difficult to find a deluxe set in some areas, and especially in-store at GameStop.

For being "industry experts" DFC sure makes a lot of false claims. Googling the financial reports for both systems, I'm seeing Nintendo's sales were indeed down for Wii but up overall because of the 3DS, while the Xbox 360's so-called "stellar" 2012 was actually almost 30% lower than in 2011.

Edit: Just found some old DFC predictions, specifically that the PS3 would overtake the Xbox 360 and start to put an edge on the Wii by 2009, and that the next generation of consoles would start rolling out in 2011. I'm going to go ahead and take their predictions with some pretty big grains of salt.

( Edited 15.01.2013 02:13 by justonesp00lturn )

NNID: crackedthesky
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Azuardo 15.01.2013#6

Well I doubt Nintendo would have predicted the abysmal start the Wii U has had in the UK and Europe. Another week of terrible figures this week again.

But I don't know as in-depth about the US scene so I won't start making guesses. Although the sales of the console have not been very strong the world over. I imagine this guy is talking about Nintendo specifically in the US, though, and not Europe or worldwide. I don't think they're quite in the downward cycle and collapse he makes out, but the way things are going over here, it could head that way if Nintendo don't do something quickly. The 3DS is about the one thing keeping them afloat here.

J4K 15.01.2013#7

I think the picture you paint is blindly optimistic, justones. "Collapse" is a strong word, sure, but your rosy picture is no more accurate. Wii sales have fallen off dramatically. The DS, a titanic success true enough, is an aged product. The 3DS is generating momentum, but still not hugely profitable. And the Wii U has been a slight disappointment. Not a failure by any means, but just not that successful yet.

All of this is reflected in the fact that Nintendo is going through the first period in its life where it hasn't been profitable and also lost massive value in its stock.

You're deluding yourself to pretend Nintendo isn't experiencing some problems.

the Xbox 360's so-called "stellar" 2012 was actually almost 30% lower than in 2011.

It's an old system. It's sales growth is on a downward trend. The stellarness comes from the fact it wasn't worse. It massively outsold the Wii and the PS3 this year. Remember how the Wii used to sell more than the 360? Yeah, that stopped happening a while ago. In dramatic fashion. Hence stellar year for the 360.

I'm not trying to be doom and gloom on Nintendo, but let's have a reality check here. You might disagree with some of the analysis, but this report isn't too far off the truth.

Sonic_13 15.01.2013#8

Per Nintendo's financial report, as of September 30, 2012 Wii has sold 46.12 million units in the Americas.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2012/121024e.pdf

Azuardo said:
Although the sales of the console have not been very strong the world over.

I see comments similar to this a lot. But what is it based on exactly? Wii sold exceptionally well, so yes, Wii U is short of those totals if that is what it is being compared to. However, Wii U is selling better than the PS3 and 360 sold during the same time period in their lifecycles as well as better than other past Nintendo systems. If every future launch gets compared to Wii's, then nearly all are probably going to be considered weak.

3DS has also sold 1 million more units than the DS at equivalent points in lifecycle.

Jacob4000 said:
All of this is reflected in the fact that Nintendo is going through the first period in its life where it hasn't been profitable and also lost massive value in its stock.

It's also important to look at why Nintendo is in the red this year. Part of it is because it is in the transition between generations for their home console (and the handheld transition was still going on to an extent), but that is really only a small part.

The really significant part of their losses is due to the global economy and currency exchanges. For one quarter last year a full 75% of their losses were due to this factor. (Yes, 75%!).

( Edited 15.01.2013 05:02 by Sonic_13 )

crackedthesky 15.01.2013#9

Azuardo said:
Well I doubt Nintendo would have predicted the abysmal start the Wii U has had in the UK and Europe. Another week of terrible figures this week again.
But I don't know as in-depth about the US scene so I won't start making guesses. Although the sales of the console have not been very strong the world over. I imagine this guy is talking about Nintendo specifically in the US, though, and not Europe or worldwide. I don't think they're quite in the downward cycle and collapse he makes out, but the way things are going over here, it could head that way if Nintendo don't do something quickly. The 3DS is about the one thing keeping them afloat here.

It didn't help that they launched with Mario and Nintendo Land as the only first-party titles. If they had launched with a Zelda or even a main series Mario game the Wii U's launch would've been much better. I think "afloat" is a strong word though, I think if Nintendo was in real trouble they'd stop making "experimental" games and projects like Wii Fit and Nintendo Land and start hammering out the Zeldas and Metroids and real moneymakers left and right.

Jacob4000 said:
I think the picture you paint is blindly optimistic, justones. "Collapse" is a strong word, sure, but your rosy picture is no more accurate. Wii sales have fallen off dramatically. The DS, a titanic success true enough, is an aged product. The 3DS is generating momentum, but still not hugely profitable. And the Wii U has been a slight disappointment. Not a failure by any means, but just not that successful yet.

It's about perspective though. Wii sales have fallen dramatically, yes. From a dramatically higher total point than the Xbox we're comparing it to, and in the wake of a year that saw no major first-party releases (the last being Skyward Sword in November 2011) and the launch of a new system.

All of this is reflected in the fact that Nintendo is going through the first period in its life where it hasn't been profitable and also lost massive value in its stock.You're deluding yourself to pretend Nintendo isn't experiencing some problems.

Nintendo's stock right now is higher than the entirety of the 90's and the early 2000's (and yes, there's inflation and all kinds of migraine-inducing economic mumbo jumbo, but I'm talking perspective here). They saw a massive boost with the launch of the Wii, and that boost started fading after 2009. Their stock is low right now, but again, putting it into perspective, 2011 and 2012 were two of the gaming industry's worst years over all, so their stock being low isn't some industry exclusive. Where Nintendo runs into trouble is that they only make video games, where Microsoft and Sony make a ton of other things in a ton of other markets, so that's the trouble spot for Big N. Nintendo isn't doing any worse off than the gaming industry as a whole, but uniquely, Nintendo's whole stake is in the gaming industry.

That all said, their stock is rising, the Wii U has only sold about 100k units fewer than the Wii did at its launch, and when Nintendo start releasing first party games again, their stock will probably rise. The continued success of the 3DS will also help that, and I imagine the 3DS will start to do even better later this year with the launch of Pokemon X and Y. Not to mention, at least here in the US, people like Michael Pachter actually help drive investments, and he's very clearly not a remotely unbiased or accurate source.

It's an old system. It's sales growth is on a downward trend. The stellarness comes from the fact it wasn't worse. It massively outsold the Wii and the PS3 this year. Remember how the Wii used to sell more than the 360? Yeah, that stopped happening a while ago. In dramatic fashion. Hence stellar year for the 360.

The "old system" bit is just as true for the PS3 and Wii. And actually, the PS3 overtook the Xbox 360 in total sales in 2012. Again, it's a matter of perspective. Xbox had a great year in 2012, that's true, but it had a really bad 2009, a just okay 2010 and first three quarters of 2011. If you look only at 2012, things look great for Microsoft and terrible for everyone else, but 2012 is a very narrow scope. The Xbox 360 is in third place out of three for overall sales, despite a great 2012. It sold more than the PS3 and Wii, but that's the first year that has happened out of 5-6 years. Yeah, the Wii stopped outselling the Xbox. It still has some 20 million units more total, all of which turned a profit (which can't be said for the Xbox), which only outsold it by a few million units, and again, that's with over a year of no first-party support for the Wii. Basically, the Xbox did great for a year after four okay to terrible ones. And this comes off as even more troubling when you consider the Xbox was out a year before its competitors.

I'm not trying to be doom and gloom on Nintendo, but let's have a reality check here. You might disagree with some of the analysis, but this report isn't too far off the truth.

I know what you mean, and I do tend to look on the bright side of things, I just think there are way too many things that have to be omitted or overlooked to make the conclusion that Microsoft is dominating this industry. Again, they're in third place in the long run despite having their console out longest, and in the short run they're leading but not even by very much, and all of this is only relevant if you pretend Nintendo didn't just release a new console less than two months ago. I think fourth quarters in general are a bad time to base predictions off of because with the holidays, figures are unpredictable, and especially when a new console is released.

I think by April of this year we'll be seeing a lot more solid information on industry trends. This particular bit of information just has way too many "if you look at this and count this and don't count this, THEN x is true" to seem at all relevant to me, and again, comes from a group that appears to not have had much success predicting market trends in the past.

Sorry for the novel, haha. I just think if Nintendo could survive the GameCube era, they can pretty much last through anything. They did the best financially with the worst-selling system, there's no way they're on the brink of collapse with the best.

Edit this post:

[quote][b]Azuardo said:[/b] Well I doubt Nintendo would have predicted the abysmal start the Wii U has had in the UK and Europe. Another week of terrible figures this week again.

But I don't know as in-depth about the US scene so I won't start making guesses. Although the sales of the console have not been very strong the world over. I imagine this guy is talking about Nintendo specifically in the US, though, and not Europe or worldwide. I don't think they're quite in the downward cycle and collapse he makes out, but the way things are going over here, it could head that way if Nintendo don't do something quickly. The 3DS is about the one thing keeping them afloat here.[/quote]

It didn't help that they launched with Mario and Nintendo Land as the only first-party titles. If they had launched with a Zelda or even a main series Mario game the Wii U's launch would've been much better. I think "afloat" is a strong word though, I think if Nintendo was in real trouble they'd stop making "experimental" games and projects like Wii Fit and Nintendo Land and start hammering out the Zeldas and Metroids and real moneymakers left and right.
[quote]Jacob4000 said: I think the picture you paint is blindly optimistic, justones. "Collapse" is a strong word, sure, but your rosy picture is no more accurate. Wii sales have fallen off dramatically. The DS, a titanic success true enough, is an aged product. The 3DS is generating momentum, but still not hugely profitable. And the Wii U has been a slight disappointment. Not a failure by any means, but just not that successful yet.[/quote]

It's about perspective though. Wii sales have fallen dramatically, yes. From a dramatically higher total point than the Xbox we're comparing it to, and in the wake of a year that saw no major first-party releases (the last being Skyward Sword in November 2011) and the launch of a new system.[quote]All of this is reflected in the fact that Nintendo is going through the first period in its life where it hasn't been profitable and also lost massive value in its stock.You're deluding yourself to pretend Nintendo isn't experiencing some problems.[/quote]

Nintendo's stock right now is higher than the entirety of the 90's and the early 2000's (and yes, there's inflation and all kinds of migraine-inducing economic mumbo jumbo, but I'm talking perspective here). They saw a massive boost with the launch of the Wii, and that boost started fading after 2009. Their stock is low right now, but again, putting it into perspective, 2011 and 2012 were two of the gaming industry's worst years over all, so their stock being low isn't some industry exclusive. Where Nintendo runs into trouble is that they only make video games, where Microsoft and Sony make a ton of other things in a ton of other markets, so that's the trouble spot for Big N. Nintendo isn't doing any worse off than the gaming industry as a whole, but uniquely, Nintendo's whole stake is in the gaming industry.

That all said, their stock is rising, the Wii U has only sold about 100k units fewer than the Wii did at its launch, and when Nintendo start releasing first party games again, their stock will probably rise. The continued success of the 3DS will also help that, and I imagine the 3DS will start to do even better later this year with the launch of Pokemon X and Y. Not to mention, at least here in the US, people like Michael Pachter actually help drive investments, and he's very clearly not a remotely unbiased or accurate source.[quote]It's an old system. It's sales growth is on a downward trend. The stellarness comes from the fact it wasn't worse. It massively outsold the Wii and the PS3 this year. Remember how the Wii used to sell more than the 360? Yeah, that stopped happening a while ago. In dramatic fashion. Hence stellar year for the 360.[/quote]

The "old system" bit is just as true for the PS3 and Wii. And actually, the PS3 overtook the Xbox 360 in total sales in 2012. Again, it's a matter of perspective. Xbox had a great year in 2012, that's true, but it had a really bad 2009, a just okay 2010 and first three quarters of 2011. If you look only at 2012, things look great for Microsoft and terrible for everyone else, but 2012 is a very narrow scope. The Xbox 360 is in third place out of three for overall sales, despite a great 2012. It sold more than the PS3 and Wii, but that's the first year that has happened out of 5-6 years. Yeah, the Wii stopped outselling the Xbox. It still has some 20 million units more total, all of which turned a profit (which can't be said for the Xbox), which only outsold it by a few million units, and again, that's with over a year of no first-party support for the Wii. Basically, the Xbox did great for a year after four okay to terrible ones. And this comes off as even more troubling when you consider the Xbox was out a year before its competitors.[quote]I'm not trying to be doom and gloom on Nintendo, but let's have a reality check here. You might disagree with some of the analysis, but this report isn't too far off the truth.[/quote]
I know what you mean, and I do tend to look on the bright side of things, I just think there are way too many things that have to be omitted or overlooked to make the conclusion that Microsoft is dominating this industry. Again, they're in third place in the long run despite having their console out longest, and in the short run they're leading but not even by very much, and all of this is only relevant if you pretend Nintendo didn't just release a new console less than two months ago. I think fourth quarters in general are a bad time to base predictions off of because with the holidays, figures are unpredictable, and especially when a new console is released.

I think by April of this year we'll be seeing a lot more solid information on industry trends. This particular bit of information just has way too many "if you look at this and count this and don't count this, THEN x is true" to seem at all relevant to me, and again, comes from a group that appears to not have had much success predicting market trends in the past.

Sorry for the novel, haha. I just think if Nintendo could survive the GameCube era, they can pretty much last through anything. They did the best financially with the worst-selling system, there's no way they're on the brink of collapse with the best.

Save Changes Cancel Full Edit

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crackedthesky 15.01.2013#10

Sonic_13 said:
Per Nintendo's financial report, as of September 30, 2012 Wii has sold 46.12 million units in the Americas.
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2012/121024e.pdf

See, so this whole "prediction" is bunk anyway, Nintendo's total is already higher than DFC's predicted 2017 total for any console.

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My blog, mostly about writing: http://www.davidjlovato.com

Azuardo 15.01.2013#11

Per Nintendo's financial report, as of September 30, 2012 Wii has sold 46.12 million units in the Americas.

Yeah, see, I could find that 45mil figure, and you having this 46 figure makes this 'prediction' even more odd.

I see comments similar to this a lot. But what is it based on exactly?

Would it help if I told you the Wii U's sales were incredibly strong? You only need to read Iwata's comments of him admitting sales "aren't bad." Nothing to suggest it's selling very well. All I said was sales of the system haven't been very strong the world over, and a bit of sales research and comments like that prove that. Not in any way saying they're terrible sales, but if you look at only Europe, they are.

I think if Nintendo was in real trouble they'd stop making "experimental" games and projects like Wii Fit and Nintendo Land and start hammering out the Zeldas and Metroids and real moneymakers left and right.

They could not have predicted these Europe sales, though, so how would they have known to smash out such titles in time? Nor do they have the time at this second to get any new Zelda or Mario out there until the end of the year. If anything, it's going to make them rush out stuff like Wii Fit U ASAP. I honestly don't know how they are going to counter these sales in Europe, since they are far worse than sales of the system in the rest of the world. I'm guessing a price cut by the summer will be the start of things if nothing improves.

The recent PS3 > 360 report in WW sales, I've been reading it might not be 100% accurate. But I haven't looked into it properly. But thought I would mention, since you brought it up.

J4K 15.01.2013#12

justonesp00lturn said:
Sonic_13 said:
Per Nintendo's financial report, as of September 30, 2012 Wii has sold 46.12 million units in the Americas.
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2012/121024e.pdf
See, so this whole "prediction" is bunk anyway, Nintendo's total is already higher than DFC's predicted 2017 total for any console.

Nintendo's figures are for the "Americas", as in Canada, the US, and Mexico. The figures for DFC are for the US only. So not necessarily a discrepancy here. Unless I'm missing some other detail?

It's also important to look at why Nintendo is in the red this year. Part of it is because it is in the transition between generations for their home console (and the handheld transition was still going on to an extent), but that is really only a small part.The really significant part of their losses is due to the global economy and currency exchanges. For one quarter last year a full 75% of their losses were due to this factor. (Yes, 75%!).

Absolutely exchange rate has been a nightmare for them -- but that still leaves 25% of their loss to fading revenues.

I'd also like to point out that generational transition is certainly a weak point for them, but this isn't their first transition. It's the first one where they've lost profitability though. Whatever is blamed doesn't change the significance of that.

It's about perspective though. Wii sales have fallen dramatically, yes. From a dramatically higher total point than the Xbox we're comparing it to, and in the wake of a year that saw no major first-party releases (the last being Skyward Sword in November 2011) and the launch of a new system.

The only point I'm comparing is that for years the Wii outsold the 360 in the US by a wide margin. That isn't happening anymore. Not even close. The Wii is regularly far outstripped by the 360. When the leader goes from 1 to 2, that's a big shift. Whatever is to blame is frankly irrelevant (especially since this article is merely talking up hardware sales), the reality is the Wii's fall is notable, especially in the face of the relative staying power of the 360. The Wii U can't really be blamed for this either -- this trend started long ago.

Nintendo's stock right now is higher than the entirety of the 90's and the early 2000's (and yes, there's inflation and all kinds of migraine-inducing economic mumbo jumbo, but I'm talking perspective here). They saw a massive boost with the launch of the Wii, and that boost started fading after 2009. Their stock is low right now, but again, putting it into perspective, 2011 and 2012 were two of the gaming industry's worst years over all, so their stock being low isn't some industry exclusive. Where Nintendo runs into trouble is that they only make video games, where Microsoft and Sony make a ton of other things in a ton of other markets, so that's the trouble spot for Big N. Nintendo isn't doing any worse off than the gaming industry as a whole, but uniquely, Nintendo's whole stake is in the gaming industry.

I never said Nintendo is uniquely in a poor position -- the industry as a whole is in tough shape.

I'm only countering the notion that everything is fine and dandy. When you lose profitably, your stock tumbles from its previous highs, and your brand new systems aren't selling at the pace you'd like, you can't say things are going super well.

Perspective may help prevent the onset of panic over these developments, but it doesn't change the fact that these aren't wonderful times for Nintendo right now. End of Nintendo time? They have far too much money banked for that to happen, and the 3DS will ultimately prove to be a success for them. Not end of Nintendo time, but not the heady days of just a few years ago either.

The "old system" bit is just as true for the PS3 and Wii. And actually, the PS3 overtook the Xbox 360 in total sales in 2012. Again, it's a matter of perspective. Xbox had a great year in 2012, that's true, but it had a really bad 2009, a just okay 2010 and first three quarters of 2011. If you look only at 2012, things look great for Microsoft and terrible for everyone else, but 2012 is a very narrow scope. The Xbox 360 is in third place out of three for overall sales, despite a great 2012. It sold more than the PS3 and Wii, but that's the first year that has happened out of 5-6 years. Yeah, the Wii stopped outselling the Xbox. It still has some 20 million units more total, all of which turned a profit (which can't be said for the Xbox), which only outsold it by a few million units, and again, that's with over a year of no first-party support for the Wii. Basically, the Xbox did great for a year after four okay to terrible ones. And this comes off as even more troubling when you consider the Xbox was out a year before its competitors.

Okay we're losing focus here. You've shifted from the US market to the entire worldwide sales picture.

Speaking only of the US Market; I don't see how your notes about the 360 sales are detrimental. Which way would you rather have momentum? Nintendo's way where it went gangbusters early and now is limping forward painfully, or Microsoft's where they're actually picking up steam as the generation goes on? Right now MS is rolling smoothly into the next generation without really a concern. Nintendo launched the Wii U out of necessity because of flagging Wii interest.

As for worldwide PS3 vs 360, I believe the two are roughly in-step worldwide. But since we're talking about the US market, the 360 is the dominant system. Japan is obviously a different story, and Europe might be as well. Speaking globally, Sony has also done a pretty good job shifting momentum from a system that appeared doomed to dramatic failure, to one that remains competitive.

Sorry for the novel, haha. I just think if Nintendo could survive the GameCube era, they can pretty much last through anything. They did the best financially with the worst-selling system, there's no way they're on the brink of collapse with the best.

Yeah I don't expect them to disappear by any means. I also expect them to become profitable again very soon. The 3DS is making money, and while the Wii U is sold at a loss, it's not a significant loss and it's one that's easily recovered by software sales. Assuming the strength of the Yen doesn't sink them in the long run, Nintendo will be fine.

But I also believe this generation (i.e. the Wii generation) is an outlier in terms of Nintendo's market position. I don't think they'll have the number one selling piece of hardware for the Wii U generation.

Edit this post:

[quote][b]justonesp00lturn said:[/b] [quote][b]Sonic_13 said:[/b] Per Nintendo's financial report, as of September 30, 2012 Wii has sold 46.12 million units in the Americas.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2012/121024e.pdf[/quote]

See, so this whole "prediction" is bunk anyway, Nintendo's total is already higher than DFC's predicted 2017 total for any console.[/quote]

Nintendo's figures are for the "Americas", as in Canada, the US, and Mexico. The figures for DFC are for the US only. So not necessarily a discrepancy here. Unless I'm missing some other detail?

[quote]It's also important to look at why Nintendo is in the red this year. Part of it is because it is in the transition between generations for their home console (and the handheld transition was still going on to an extent), but that is really only a small part.The really significant part of their losses is due to the global economy and currency exchanges. For one quarter last year a full 75% of their losses were due to this factor. (Yes, 75%!).[/quote]

Absolutely exchange rate has been a nightmare for them -- but that still leaves 25% of their loss to fading revenues.

I'd also like to point out that generational transition is certainly a weak point for them, but this isn't their first transition. It's the first one where they've lost profitability though. Whatever is blamed doesn't change the significance of that.

[quote]It's about perspective though. Wii sales have fallen dramatically, yes. From a dramatically higher total point than the Xbox we're comparing it to, and in the wake of a year that saw no major first-party releases (the last being Skyward Sword in November 2011) and the launch of a new system.[/quote]

The only point I'm comparing is that for years the Wii outsold the 360 in the US by a wide margin. That isn't happening anymore. Not even close. The Wii is regularly far outstripped by the 360. When the leader goes from 1 to 2, that's a big shift. Whatever is to blame is frankly irrelevant (especially since this article is merely talking up hardware sales), the reality is the Wii's fall is notable, especially in the face of the relative staying power of the 360. The Wii U can't really be blamed for this either -- this trend started long ago.

[quote]Nintendo's stock right now is higher than the entirety of the 90's and the early 2000's (and yes, there's inflation and all kinds of migraine-inducing economic mumbo jumbo, but I'm talking perspective here). They saw a massive boost with the launch of the Wii, and that boost started fading after 2009. Their stock is low right now, but again, putting it into perspective, 2011 and 2012 were two of the gaming industry's worst years over all, so their stock being low isn't some industry exclusive. Where Nintendo runs into trouble is that they only make video games, where Microsoft and Sony make a ton of other things in a ton of other markets, so that's the trouble spot for Big N. Nintendo isn't doing any worse off than the gaming industry as a whole, but uniquely, Nintendo's whole stake is in the gaming industry.[/quote]

I never said Nintendo is uniquely in a poor position -- the industry as a whole is in tough shape.

I'm only countering the notion that everything is fine and dandy. When you lose profitably, your stock tumbles from its previous highs, and your brand new systems aren't selling at the pace you'd like, you can't say things are going super well.

Perspective may help prevent the onset of panic over these developments, but it doesn't change the fact that these aren't wonderful times for Nintendo right now. End of Nintendo time? They have far too much money banked for that to happen, and the 3DS will ultimately prove to be a success for them. Not end of Nintendo time, but not the heady days of just a few years ago either.

[quote]The "old system" bit is just as true for the PS3 and Wii. And actually, the PS3 overtook the Xbox 360 in total sales in 2012. Again, it's a matter of perspective. Xbox had a great year in 2012, that's true, but it had a really bad 2009, a just okay 2010 and first three quarters of 2011. If you look only at 2012, things look great for Microsoft and terrible for everyone else, but 2012 is a very narrow scope. The Xbox 360 is in third place out of three for overall sales, despite a great 2012. It sold more than the PS3 and Wii, but that's the first year that has happened out of 5-6 years. Yeah, the Wii stopped outselling the Xbox. It still has some 20 million units more total, all of which turned a profit (which can't be said for the Xbox), which only outsold it by a few million units, and again, that's with over a year of no first-party support for the Wii. Basically, the Xbox did great for a year after four okay to terrible ones. And this comes off as even more troubling when you consider the Xbox was out a year before its competitors.[/quote]

Okay we're losing focus here. You've shifted from the US market to the entire worldwide sales picture.

Speaking only of the US Market; I don't see how your notes about the 360 sales are detrimental. Which way would you rather have momentum? Nintendo's way where it went gangbusters early and now is limping forward painfully, or Microsoft's where they're actually picking up steam as the generation goes on? Right now MS is rolling smoothly into the next generation without really a concern. Nintendo launched the Wii U out of necessity because of flagging Wii interest.

As for worldwide PS3 vs 360, I believe the two are roughly in-step worldwide. But since we're talking about the US market, the 360 is the dominant system. Japan is obviously a different story, and Europe might be as well. Speaking globally, Sony has also done a pretty good job shifting momentum from a system that appeared doomed to dramatic failure, to one that remains competitive.

[quote]Sorry for the novel, haha. I just think if Nintendo could survive the GameCube era, they can pretty much last through anything. They did the best financially with the worst-selling system, there's no way they're on the brink of collapse with the best.[/quote]

Yeah I don't expect them to disappear by any means. I also expect them to become profitable again very soon. The 3DS is making money, and while the Wii U is sold at a loss, it's not a significant loss and it's one that's easily recovered by software sales. Assuming the strength of the Yen doesn't sink them in the long run, Nintendo will be fine.

But I also believe this generation (i.e. the Wii generation) is an outlier in terms of Nintendo's market position. I don't think they'll have the number one selling piece of hardware for the Wii U generation.

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crackedthesky 15.01.2013#13

Azuardo said:
They could not have predicted these Europe sales, though, so how would they have known to smash out such titles in time? Nor do they have the time at this second to get any new Zelda or Mario out there until the end of the year. If anything, it's going to make them rush out stuff like Wii Fit U ASAP. I honestly don't know how they are going to counter these sales in Europe, since they are far worse than sales of the system in the rest of the world. I'm guessing a price cut by the summer will be the start of things if nothing improves.The recent PS3 > 360 report in WW sales, I've been reading it might not be 100% accurate. But I haven't looked into it properly. But thought I would mention, since you brought it up.

As I understand it, North America has the largest video games market, and Japan has the smallest, making Europe more or less the wild card. Nintendo is underperforming in the UK, but I don't think they're underperforming so badly in the UK that the whole company would go under.

Jacob4000 said:
Nintendo's figures are for the "Americas", as in Canada, the US, and Mexico. The figures for DFC are for the US only. So not necessarily a discrepancy here. Unless I'm missing some other detail?

Then DFC's figures would only be correct if they are assuming there are zero sales for the Wii through the next four years and mean that several million of the current Wii sales are from Canada and Mexico, which I'm sure a few million are, but I think nearly all of those are from the US. Again, their numbers only work when you make a lot of random assertions.

I'd also like to point out that generational transition is certainly a weak point for them, but this isn't their first transition. It's the first one where they've lost profitability though. Whatever is blamed doesn't change the significance of that.

This is true. It does however depend on how much they're losing, and the answer is not a lot. One game purchase entirely counteracts the profit lost by the sale of a console (for the competitors I think it was 5-6 but I may be wrong), and again, we can assume that the Deluxe Set isn't sold at a loss at all considering its US cost is the price of one game higher than the Basic Set. They're losing money on the Wii U, but they're not losing much, and while they're new to losing at all, I don't think they're going to completely bungle this to the point of bankruptcy.

The only point I'm comparing is that for years the Wii outsold the 360 in the US by a wide margin. That isn't happening anymore. Not even close. The Wii is regularly far outstripped by the 360. When the leader goes from 1 to 2, that's a big shift. Whatever is to blame is frankly irrelevant (especially since this article is merely talking up hardware sales), the reality is the Wii's fall is notable, especially in the face of the relative staying power of the 360. The Wii U can't really be blamed for this either -- this trend started long ago.

That's where I take issue though, the leader hasn't gone from 1 to 2. The Wii is still the generation leader, and by a massive margin. By my Google, the Xbox 360 only sold roughly 4 million units more than the Wii last year, rounding up. Even if we assume the same will continue, it wouldn't put the Xbox at a higher number than the Wii by 2017. And we have no reason to assume the same will continue.

I never said Nintendo is uniquely in a poor position -- the industry as a whole is in tough shape.

I know, I said that, in response to groups like DFC and Michael Pachter using language like Nintendo is being "crushed", "dominated", "in a tailspin" etc. They aren't, they're doing better than their competitors in a time where it's bad for everyone. I was saying the only case that could be made is that if the industry as a whole fails, Nintendo is the only big 3 company to fall with it. But there's no indication that the industry as a whole will fall, so these forecasts are irrelevant.

I'm only countering the notion that everything is fine and dandy. When you lose profitably, your stock tumbles from its previous highs, and your brand new systems aren't selling at the pace you'd like, you can't say things are going super well.

You're right. I didn't mean to make things seem like they're super great, because they aren't. But they aren't even in the same ballpark as bad as a lot of US investors and reporters are claiming they are.

Perspective may help prevent the onset of panic over these developments, but it doesn't change the fact that these aren't wonderful times for Nintendo right now. End of Nintendo time? They have far too much money banked for that to happen, and the 3DS will ultimately prove to be a success for them. Not end of Nintendo time, but not the heady days of just a few years ago either.

This is basically what I was trying to say. The perspective part being that DFC's forecast relies entirely on an extremely skewed perspective that doesn't reflect how things actually are.

Okay we're losing focus here. You've shifted from the US market to the entire worldwide sales picture.

Again, because DFC is, for whatever reason, pretending the market outside of the US simply doesn't exist, and that's a very big factor because Nintendo is doing the best outside of America by leaps and bounds.

Speaking only of the US Market; I don't see how your notes about the 360 sales are detrimental. Which way would you rather have momentum? Nintendo's way where it went gangbusters early and now is limping forward painfully, or Microsoft's where they're actually picking up steam as the generation goes on? Right now MS is rolling smoothly into the next generation without really a concern. Nintendo launched the Wii U out of necessity because of flagging Wii interest.

An interesting question. I would have to answer that I'd want it Nintendo's way if I were Nintendo, and Microsoft's way if I were Microsoft. The reason for this goes back to the market; Microsoft is the leader when it comes to the PC world. They can afford to perform absolutely terrible in the video games market for five years and then bounce back. Nintendo is only in the games market, they can't afford to suck for five years and then start doing okay, they're better off making a huge profit that slumps when the whole industry slumps and then releasing a new console, just as they are doing.

In short, I don't think either company is doing anything wrong on that front. They're both where they need to be, though the numbers could look better for everybody.

As for worldwide PS3 vs 360, I believe the two are roughly in-step worldwide. But since we're talking about the US market, the 360 is the dominant system. Japan is obviously a different story, and Europe might be as well. Speaking globally, Sony has also done a pretty good job shifting momentum from a system that appeared doomed to dramatic failure, to one that remains competitive.

The 360 is the dominating system. Not the dominant. It's several million units away from that, and even by DFC's warped numbers, there's little reason to believe it'll get there in the next four years, and I think the 360's sales will drop massively in two years when Microsoft releases a new console.

Sony has performed pretty well. They've been on an extremely slow but extremely steady incline for pretty much the whole generation.

Yeah I don't expect them to disappear by any means. I also expect them to become profitable again very soon. The 3DS is making money, and while the Wii U is sold at a loss, it's not a significant loss and it's one that's easily recovered by software sales. Assuming the strength of the Yen doesn't sink them in the long run, Nintendo will be fine.
But I also believe this generation (i.e. the Wii generation) is an outlier in terms of Nintendo's market position. I don't think they'll have the number one selling piece of hardware for the Wii U generation.

I don't think they will either. Nintendo dominated Sega by having the best games. They dominated MS and Sony by having revolutionary hardware. The Wii U so far has neither (it's close on the latter, but it's more of a natural extension of what they did with the Wii than it is something new and never-before seen). I think at best we'll see Nintendo pulling a Sony this generation and at worst repeating the GameCube, but either way still handily carried by the handheld market they dominate with an iron joystick thumb.

( Edited 15.01.2013 15:30 by justonesp00lturn )

Edit this post:

[quote]Azuardo said:  They could not have predicted these Europe sales, though, so how would they have known to smash out such titles in time? Nor do they have the time at this second to get any new Zelda or Mario out there until the end of the year. If anything, it's going to make them rush out stuff like Wii Fit U ASAP. I honestly don't know how they are going to counter these sales in Europe, since they are far worse than sales of the system in the rest of the world. I'm guessing a price cut by the summer will be the start of things if nothing improves.The recent PS3 > 360 report in WW sales, I've been reading it might not be 100% accurate. But I haven't looked into it properly. But thought I would mention, since you brought it up.[/quote]

As I understand it, North America has the largest video games market, and Japan has the smallest, making Europe more or less the wild card. Nintendo is underperforming in the UK, but I don't think they're underperforming so badly in the UK that the whole company would go under.
[quote][b]Jacob4000 said:[/b]

Nintendo's figures are for the "Americas", as in Canada, the US, and Mexico. The figures for DFC are for the US only. So not necessarily a discrepancy here. Unless I'm missing some other detail?[/quote]

Then DFC's figures would only be correct if they are assuming there are zero sales for the Wii through the next four years and mean that several million of the current Wii sales are from Canada and Mexico, which I'm sure a few million are, but I think nearly all of those are from the US. Again, their numbers only work when you make a lot of random assertions.

[quote]I'd also like to point out that generational transition is certainly a weak point for them, but this isn't their first transition. It's the first one where they've lost profitability though. Whatever is blamed doesn't change the significance of that.[/quote]

This is true. It does however depend on how much they're losing, and the answer is not a lot. One game purchase entirely counteracts the profit lost by the sale of a console (for the competitors I think it was 5-6 but I may be wrong), and again, we can assume that the Deluxe Set isn't sold at a loss at all considering its US cost is the price of one game higher than the Basic Set. They're losing money on the Wii U, but they're not losing much, and while they're new to losing at all, I don't think they're going to completely bungle this to the point of bankruptcy.

[quote]
The only point I'm comparing is that for years the Wii outsold the 360 in the US by a wide margin. That isn't happening anymore. Not even close. The Wii is regularly far outstripped by the 360. When the leader goes from 1 to 2, that's a big shift. Whatever is to blame is frankly irrelevant (especially since this article is merely talking up hardware sales), the reality is the Wii's fall is notable, especially in the face of the relative staying power of the 360. The Wii U can't really be blamed for this either -- this trend started long ago.[/quote]

That's where I take issue though, the leader hasn't gone from 1 to 2. The Wii is still the generation leader, and by a massive margin. By my Google, the Xbox 360 only sold roughly 4 million units more than the Wii last year, rounding up. Even if we assume the same will continue, it wouldn't put the Xbox at a higher number than the Wii by 2017. And we have no reason to assume the same will continue.

[quote]I never said Nintendo is uniquely in a poor position -- the industry as a whole is in tough shape.[/quote]

I know, I said that, in response to groups like DFC and Michael Pachter using language like Nintendo is  being "crushed", "dominated", "in a tailspin" etc. They aren't, they're doing better than their competitors in a time where it's bad for everyone. I was saying the only case that could be made is that if the industry as a whole fails, Nintendo is the only big 3 company to fall with it. But there's no indication that the industry as a whole will fall, so these forecasts are irrelevant.

[quote]I'm only countering the notion that everything is fine and dandy. When you lose profitably, your stock tumbles from its previous highs, and your brand new systems aren't selling at the pace you'd like, you can't say things are going super well.[/quote]

You're right. I didn't mean to make things seem like they're super great, because they aren't. But they aren't even in the same ballpark as bad as a lot of US investors and reporters are claiming they are.

[quote]Perspective may help prevent the onset of panic over these developments, but it doesn't change the fact that these aren't wonderful times for Nintendo right now. End of Nintendo time? They have far too much money banked for that to happen, and the 3DS will ultimately prove to be a success for them. Not end of Nintendo time, but not the heady days of just a few years ago either.[/quote]

This is basically what I was trying to say. The perspective part being that DFC's forecast relies entirely on an extremely skewed perspective that doesn't reflect how things actually are.

[quote]Okay we're losing focus here. You've shifted from the US market to the entire worldwide sales picture.[/quote]

Again, because DFC is, for whatever reason, pretending the market outside of the US simply doesn't exist, and that's a very big factor because Nintendo is doing the best outside of America by leaps and bounds.

[quote]Speaking only of the US Market; I don't see how your notes about the 360 sales are detrimental. Which way would you rather have momentum? Nintendo's way where it went gangbusters early and now is limping forward painfully, or Microsoft's where they're actually picking up steam as the generation goes on? Right now MS is rolling smoothly into the next generation without really a concern. Nintendo launched the Wii U out of necessity because of flagging Wii interest.[/quote]

An interesting question. I would have to answer that I'd want it Nintendo's way if I were Nintendo, and Microsoft's way if I were Microsoft. The reason for this goes back to the market; Microsoft is the leader when it comes to the PC world. They can afford to perform absolutely terrible in the video games market for five years and then bounce back. Nintendo is only in the games market, they can't afford to suck for five years and then start doing okay, they're better off making a huge profit that slumps when the whole industry slumps and then releasing a new console, just as they are doing.

In short, I don't think either company is doing anything wrong on that front. They're both where they need to be, though the numbers could look better for everybody.

[quote]As for worldwide PS3 vs 360, I believe the two are roughly in-step worldwide. But since we're talking about the US market, the 360 is the dominant system. Japan is obviously a different story, and Europe might be as well. Speaking globally, Sony has also done a pretty good job shifting momentum from a system that appeared doomed to dramatic failure, to one that remains competitive.[/quote]

The 360 is the dominating system. Not the dominant. It's several million units away from that, and even by DFC's warped numbers, there's little reason to believe it'll get there in the next four years, and I think the 360's sales will drop massively in two years when Microsoft releases a new console.

Sony has performed pretty well. They've been on an extremely slow but extremely steady incline for pretty much the whole generation.

[quote]Yeah I don't expect them to disappear by any means. I also expect them to become profitable again very soon. The 3DS is making money, and while the Wii U is sold at a loss, it's not a significant loss and it's one that's easily recovered by software sales. Assuming the strength of the Yen doesn't sink them in the long run, Nintendo will be fine.

But I also believe this generation (i.e. the Wii generation) is an outlier in terms of Nintendo's market position. I don't think they'll have the number one selling piece of hardware for the Wii U generation.[/quote]

I don't think they will either. Nintendo dominated Sega by having the best games. They dominated MS and Sony by having revolutionary hardware. The Wii U so far has neither (it's close on the latter, but it's more of a natural extension of what they did with the Wii than it is something new and never-before seen). I think at best we'll see Nintendo pulling a Sony this generation and at worst repeating the GameCube, but either way still handily carried by the handheld market they dominate with an iron joystick thumb.

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NNID: crackedthesky
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EdEN 15.01.2013#14

Pure "analyst" BS. Good luck with that. Wii is currently 25 million ahead of the 360, and still sells 200k a month, and it just had a great holiday.

Also, there is no way Microsoft will continue to manufacture the 360 by 2015+. They will focus on their next console and move on, just like they did with the original Xbox.

Nintendo isn't "collapsing". The Wii sold strong since launch and analysts and NPD make it seem as if the Wii is selling -100k a month as is to blame for the lower sales industry wide.

Azuardo 15.01.2013#15

justonesp00lturn said:
As I understand it, North America has the largest video games market, and Japan has the smallest, making Europe more or less the wild card. Nintendo is underperforming in the UK, but I don't think they're underperforming so badly in the UK that the whole company would go under.

Oh, agreed, for sure. Losing Europe is not going to put them under by any means. But, and correct me if I'm wrong now, I believe the UK is the biggest games market in Europe, and Nintendo is getting trounced here. Not to shift focus away from the topic completely, which was US sales and predictions, but it's still worth noting that something has to change if they want to get on track in this part of the world.

One game purchase entirely counteracts the profit lost by the sale of a console

I'm sure this was proven to be two games recently. Doesn't matter much, tbf, since I'm sure almost all Wii U owners will buy more than one game.

An interesting question. I would have to answer that I'd want it Nintendo's way if I were Nintendo, and Microsoft's way if I were Microsoft. The reason for this goes back to the market; Microsoft is the leader when it comes to the PC world. They can afford to perform absolutely terrible in the video games market for five years and then bounce back. Nintendo is only in the games market, they can't afford to suck for five years and then start doing okay, they're better off making a huge profit that slumps when the whole industry slumps and then releasing a new console, just as they are doing.In short, I don't think either company is doing anything wrong on that front. They're both where they need to be, though the numbers could look better for everybody.

So long as Nintendo continue to turn in a profit, that's fine. But I am not a fan of the way they have gone about the transition from the Wii to the Wii U. They left the Wii to die years ago and then expected to simply ignorantly ride along the success of the name, expecting people to merely jump right on in to this Wii U and reap the benefits. Personally, I would prefer to have Microsoft's current momentum, whereby the 360 continues to sell and sell, keeping its fans happy and constantly supporting it till the last. I believe Nintendo needed to do something much sooner; perhaps get the Wii U out at least a year earlier, rather than releasing it in a completely dry spell where the Wii name is running out of steam.

As it is, they've got a bit of a fight on their hands, and really need to try harder than they ever had to last gen to really get this system shifting units. I've no doubt it will turn in a profit for them, but I'm with Jacob, and really can't see it being the dominant force at all next gen. I do think PS4/720 will also have slow starts, but not in the way the Wii U has had, and especially not in Europe. I think the Wii U will be the GameCube of the next generation.

Re-reading our posts, I think we're all pretty much in agreement with each other. It's not desperate times for Nintendo. They'll do enough to ride along and make a profit. But it's very possible they'll finish "last" next gen. Quite whether they'll give a toss about that if they make a profit, I don't know. But we can't say for sure what'll happen. But that would be my guess at this moment in time.

Edit this post:

[quote][b]justonesp00lturn said:[/b]
As I understand it, North America has the largest video games market, and Japan has the smallest, making Europe more or less the wild card. Nintendo is underperforming in the UK, but I don't think they're underperforming so badly in the UK that the whole company would go under.[/quote]
Oh, agreed, for sure. Losing Europe is not going to put them under by any means. But, and correct me if I'm wrong now, I believe the UK is the biggest games market in Europe, and Nintendo is getting trounced here. Not to shift focus away from the topic completely, which was US sales and predictions, but it's still worth noting that something has to change if they want to get on track in this part of the world.

[quote]One game purchase entirely counteracts the profit lost by the sale of a console[/quote]
I'm sure this was proven to be two games recently. Doesn't matter much, tbf, since I'm sure almost all Wii U owners will buy more than one game.

[quote]An interesting question. I would have to answer that I'd want it Nintendo's way if I were Nintendo, and Microsoft's way if I were Microsoft. The reason for this goes back to the market; Microsoft is the leader when it comes to the PC world. They can afford to perform absolutely terrible in the video games market for five years and then bounce back. Nintendo is only in the games market, they can't afford to suck for five years and then start doing okay, they're better off making a huge profit that slumps when the whole industry slumps and then releasing a new console, just as they are doing.In short, I don't think either company is doing anything wrong on that front. They're both where they need to be, though the numbers could look better for everybody.[/quote]
So long as Nintendo continue to turn in a profit, that's fine. But I am not a fan of the way they have gone about the transition from the Wii to the Wii U. They left the Wii to die years ago and then expected to simply ignorantly ride along the success of the name, expecting people to merely jump right on in to this Wii U and reap the benefits. Personally, I would prefer to have Microsoft's current momentum, whereby the 360 continues to sell and sell, keeping its fans happy and constantly supporting it till the last. I believe Nintendo needed to do something much sooner; perhaps get the Wii U out at least a year earlier, rather than releasing it in a completely dry spell where the Wii name is running out of steam.

As it is, they've got a bit of a fight on their hands, and really need to try harder than they ever had to last gen to really get this system shifting units. I've no doubt it will turn in a profit for them, but I'm with Jacob, and really can't see it being the dominant force at all next gen. I do think PS4/720 will also have slow starts, but not in the way the Wii U has had, and especially not in Europe. I think the Wii U will be the GameCube of the next generation.

Re-reading our posts, I think we're all pretty much in agreement with each other. It's not desperate times for Nintendo. They'll do enough to ride along and make a profit. But it's very possible they'll finish "last" next gen. Quite whether they'll give a toss about that if they make a profit, I don't know. But we can't say for sure what'll happen. But that would be my guess at this moment in time.

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J4K 15.01.2013#16

Re-reading our posts, I think we're all pretty much in agreement with each other. It's not desperate times for Nintendo. They'll do enough to ride along and make a profit. But it's very possible they'll finish "last" next gen. Quite whether they'll give a toss about that if they make a profit, I don't know. But we can't say for sure what'll happen. But that would be my guess at this moment in time.

I think this is as good place as any to leave things. Any more debate will end up centered around semantics and wording verses any real content.

JudgeMethos (guest) 15.01.2013#17

Well, who cares? Nintendo' done supporting Wii so that gen is over for them. They've won technically cuz the 360 and ps3 are still making games and supporting their respective systems. How can 360 'win' against a competitor that doesnt even support their old tech anymore? I mean, I love my 360 & rarely play my Wii but Nintendo left on a high note (as far as install base). They're on their NEXT gen now. 360 may beat out ps3 or maybe the ps3 may end up beating out the 360 but the Wii is retired. It doesn't matter what numbers the other 2 do now.

JayUK 15.01.2013#18

justonesp00lturn said:
Azuardo said:
They could not have predicted these Europe sales, though, so how would they have known to smash out such titles in time? Nor do they have the time at this second to get any new Zelda or Mario out there until the end of the year. If anything, it's going to make them rush out stuff like Wii Fit U ASAP. I honestly don't know how they are going to counter these sales in Europe, since they are far worse than sales of the system in the rest of the world. I'm guessing a price cut by the summer will be the start of things if nothing improves.The recent PS3 > 360 report in WW sales, I've been reading it might not be 100% accurate. But I haven't looked into it properly. But thought I would mention, since you brought it up.
As I understand it, North America has the largest video games market, and Japan has the smallest, making Europe more or less the wild card. Nintendo is underperforming in the UK, but I don't think they're underperforming so badly in the UK that the whole company would go under.

Selling worse than the gamecube should have alarm bells ringing. They need something big to turn their fortunes around. The Wii for all its success is a damaged brand, people don't take it seriously.

jb 15.01.2013#19

The key here is when we talk about "brand" and "Wii" - Where is the Wii U brand in the UK and presumably Europe? Still barely any advertising on TV or out in the wider world. I'm a Londoner, one of the biggest cities and there's nothing out there - still a strong 3DS focus.

Was off ill last week for three days, so spent a lot of it infront of the TV - didn't see a single Wii U advert over at least 40 odd hours of TV.

I'm sure with good marking it can really up the userbase numbers.

But marketing is just one element, still needs those all important games which is really lacking.

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