News: First Pokémon Black/White Scans Leak Page 1

jesusraz 10.04.2010#1

Well, that looks no different to Platinum, and HeartGold/SoulSilver.

Hmm...I was expecting a visual overhaul!

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Marzeee 10.04.2010#2

I think it would have been if they waited till the next Nintendo handheld.

( Edited 10.04.2010 15:40 by Marzy )

Mason 10.04.2010#3

The change in angle can be seen most in the city shot - nothing like that in the other DS games!

JoshSL 10.04.2010#4

To me it looks like the most different Pokémon game by far. The 3D effects everywhere, the sprite quality, the battle screen... I don't see how you can't see it Adam!

But then again everyone said Gen 4 looked no different to Gen 3 at first.

Marzy said:
I think it would have been if they waited till the next Nintendo handheld.

I'd much rather have a mid-gen Gen 6 than a first gen Gen 5. By then the 3DS will have been out for a while and GameFreak will know how to make the best of it.
If this waited for the 3DS it would essentially have been a DS game running on 3DS, and essentially the same game with better graphics that would be even better if they just wait until Gen 6 to really get going with the 3DS.

This looks brilliant. This game will truly be the DS' fantastic swansong, the type of game every console needs. That killer game that everyone loves for making the most of a console (think Majora's Mask, Resident Evil 4)

I don't remember anyone complaining that they weren't pushed to next gen consoles.

( Edited 10.04.2010 15:55 by SuperLink )

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jesusraz 10.04.2010#5

Still...looks like same-old, same-old...Perhaps there will be something radically changed on the gameplay side instead. I'm finding it very hard to summon up any real interest in this right now. Will have to wait for more details first.

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JoshSL 10.04.2010#6

jesusraz said:
Still...looks like same-old, same-old...

How so? Especially compared with Gen 4, which everyone loved despite it essentially being Gen 3 with a few 3D bits.

The battle scene layout has changed for the first time since the series was created, and the environments seem fully gradiented, I expect this will take advantage of 3D effects in the way that not even HG/SS or Platinum couldn't even begin to pull off. I mean it actually looks like a large portion of the game won't be top-down for once.

We've hardly seen anything and it already looks revolutionary as far as mainseries Pokémon goes.

( Edited 10.04.2010 16:06 by SuperLink )

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jesusraz 10.04.2010#7

I'll reserve my proper judgement for when I see direct feed screens (can't be long now since Famitsu et al normally update their websites not long after mags come out) and an eventual video.

I'm not saying it looks bad...After all, it now looks like Inazuma Eleven, which I think looks great.

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JoshSL 10.04.2010#8

Really I think the best way to look at it is to compare it with past evolutions the mainseries has gone through.

Then...

Now...

This seems like a pretty big deal as far as fundamental changes go xD

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jesusraz 10.04.2010#9

Ooh, I'd not looked at the scan properly, as when I glanced on my phone before it looked just like a load of Japanese text. They've definitely gone for the Inazuma Eleven town view, which is nice.

I'll still reserve my judgement until more info emerges as it'd be interesting to see what major changes have been made to the gameplay.

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Jump_button 10.04.2010#10

they need a new art style but looks like they trying somthing a little

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dezza (guest) 11.04.2010#11

the pokedex will probably increase to about 600 meaning that there will be up to 115 pokemon introduced

Darkflame 11.04.2010#12

I like this style actually. But still not sure it will be new enough.

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Flynnie 11.04.2010#13

It seems they are going slightly isometric...

Stil in 15 years or so since the original Pokemon release this seems literally same ole same ole! You bias PokeFreaks perhaps can't see that you have been playing the same game essentially. Not that its a bad thing i mean all Nintendo games have a basic and traditional style to their sequels. I mean 2D Mario's really havnt done much differently in terms of the object of the game, even 3D Zelda's still use the same sorta format, so expecting Pokemon to change would be essentially ruining what made it...

....i dont even know what im talking about anymore....

Smilie

JoshSL 11.04.2010#14

White Ranger said:
Stil in 15 years or so since the original Pokemon release this seems literally same ole same ole!

Why fix what's not broken? And the changes coming in Black & White are supposed to be pretty shaking-up stuff, so don't judge it yet. Can't you see how different it looks from the graphics already?

You bias PokeFreaks

Thanks.

perhaps can't see that you have been playing the same game essentially.

They get bigger and better every 4 years, and have many more important features that make it a more solid experience.

I mean 2D Mario's really havnt done much differently in terms of the object of the game

The difference between Pokémon and 2D Mario is that 2D Mario has had no true evolutions in over 20 years, the games aren't even bigger, just 8 worlds with 8 stages as usual. Whereas Pokémon has had plenty of changes in just over a decade.

"Slightly isometric" is a gross under-exaggeration my friend.

( Edited 10.04.2010 23:53 by SuperLink )

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Darkflame 11.04.2010#15

The difference between Pokémon and 2D Mario is that 2D Mario has had no true evolutions in over 20 years

Utter. Utter rubbish.
If you compare New Mario Bros to the NES directly. Yes, you would reach that conclusion.

But the difference between, say, Mario1 and MarioWorld is MUCH bigger then the jumps pokemon made. Mario's gone much further, and then took a retro step back.

Also, I note you limit it to 2D Mario's...which convenient ignores the fact Mario evolved massively into a 3D game becoming some of the highest rated games of all time. Something pokemon has failed to do.

That said, I do like the style of these screenshots.
But I still want a bigger evolution of the game. GoldenSun already outdid Pokemon in terms of graphics and puzzles (on worse hardware too), I really want to see Pokemon catching up.

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JoshSL 11.04.2010#16

Darkflame said:

If you compare New Mario Bros to the NES directly. Yes, you would reach that conclusion.
But the difference between, say, Mario1 and MarioWorld is MUCH bigger then the jumps pokemon made. Mario's gone much further, and then took a retro step back.

A retro step back that ignores evolution. I resent the series for doing this. Mario World was deep with all its secrets 'n' stuff, but NOT bigger in changes than the ones Pokémon has gone through. Pokémon is an RPG so they're clearly not directly comparable, but Pokémon has gone through tons of changes, and those are just battle mechanics, there are plenty of other new important game elements being introduced all the time, people who don't play the games often just don't notice them.

The fundamental 2D Mario gameplay never changes, the formula and layout of the games do like Mario World proved (although it still had 8 worlds with 8 stages each if you think about it) but that happens in Pokémon too, and if rumours are to be believed this game will shake up the formula a bit too.

Also, I note you limit it to 2D Mario's...which convenient ignores the fact Mario evolved massively into a 3D game becoming some of the highest rated games of all time. Something pokemon has failed to do.

Pokémon is called Pocket Monsters for a reason, GameFreak refuse to work on a console game when they could be working on the next portable game. Considering how good every mainseries Pokémon game is I don't consider this a problem, they're all far better than 3D Pokémon efforts.

Besides, you're bringing up 3D Mario but ignoring all the new Pokémon spinoffs, all different types of RPGs with HUGE differences to mainseries games, all of which are very good/fantastic in their own ways.
Everyone ignores the spinoffs and pretends they aren't important though. They were created due to ideas GameFreak had that would change the mainseries too much to be implemented.

( Edited 11.04.2010 00:24 by SuperLink )

Edit this post:

[quote][b]Darkflame said:[/b]<br/>
If you compare New Mario Bros to the NES directly. Yes, you would reach that conclusion.

But the difference between, say, Mario1 and MarioWorld is MUCH bigger then the jumps pokemon made. Mario's gone much further, and then took a retro step back.[/quote]
A retro step back that ignores evolution. I resent the series for doing this. Mario World was deep with all its secrets 'n' stuff, but NOT bigger in changes than the ones Pokémon has gone through. Pokémon is an RPG so they're clearly not directly comparable, but Pokémon has gone through [url=http://board.sonicstadium.org/topic/259-the-pokemans-thread/page__st__1800__p__147715&#entry147715]tons of changes[/url], and those are just battle mechanics, there are plenty of other new important game elements being introduced all the time, people who don't play the games often just don't notice them.

The fundamental 2D Mario gameplay [i]never changes[/i], the formula and layout of the games do like Mario World proved (although it still had 8 worlds with 8 stages each if you think about it) but that happens in Pokémon too, and if rumours are to be believed this game will shake up the formula a bit too.

[quote]Also, I note you limit it to 2D Mario's...which convenient ignores the fact Mario evolved massively into a 3D game becoming some of the highest rated games of all time. Something pokemon has failed to do.[/quote]
Pokémon is called Pocket Monsters for a reason, GameFreak refuse to work on a console game when they could be working on the next portable game. Considering how good every mainseries Pokémon game is I don't consider this a problem, they're all far better than 3D Pokémon efforts.

Besides, you're bringing up 3D Mario but ignoring all the new Pokémon spinoffs, all different types of RPGs with HUGE differences to mainseries games, all of which are very good/fantastic in their own ways.
[i]Everyone[/i] ignores the spinoffs and pretends they aren't important though. They were created due to ideas GameFreak had that would change the mainseries too much to be implemented.

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crackedthesky 11.04.2010#17

If we must compare this to the Mario series I'd say this is the closest equivalent to going from, say Super Mario Bros for NES to Paper Mario. Saying it isn't a change is not only premature, but incorrect. The world is becoming more 3-D, more realistic. The battle system is getting an overhaul.
Also, this is info based on like 5 scans. Claiming that there's aboslutley nothing different about the game is, like I said, premature.

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J4K 11.04.2010#18

The difference between Pokémon and 2D Mario is that 2D Mario has had no true evolutions in over 20 years, the games aren't even bigger, just 8 worlds with 8 stages as usual. Whereas Pokémon has had plenty of changes in just over a decade.

The difference is that there were indeed 20 years between the Mario releases. People wanted the original formula back again. Why? Because after the last two decades Mario had gone through massive radical changes.

The Pokemon series in this respect is not the same at all. They've been churning out games with very similar gameplay for nearly 15 years.

I'm not saying its a bad thing for a series to stay more or less the same (I'm a Fire Emblem fan after all!), but just arguing that its not really fair to compare it to Mario.

PMD 11.04.2010#19

I can see how jesusraz and so many others are disappointed with lack of change in the graphics. Personally, I see a big jump in detail and style from DPP to HGSS, but I admit that the overall style has not changed much from the original games 15 years ago. The style is simple and defined, with flat textures and simple, clean sprites or poly models rather than a realistic environment that some games strive for. I think it makes the games distinct and I don't see it being a disadvantage other than having little change between generations. Think like Animal Crossing - there is very little they can do graphically to improve it without changing the nature of the game.

Perhaps if all those disappointed would tell us what you were expected, because I can't think of how they would approach the visual style differently given that they are developing this for the DS.

Personally, I would have liked to see 3D battles, but I assume it is not possible or too time consuming to do or else we would have seen it by now. There is a possibility that it would have slowed down the battles too much or just that it was too much work to model 500 attacks for each of the 500 pokemon.

TLDR: The style is intentional.

( Edited 11.04.2010 08:05 by PMD )

JoshSL 11.04.2010#20

Jacob4000 said:
People wanted the original formula back again. Why? Because after the last two decades Mario had gone through massive radical changes.

This is BS, the 2D Mario series has never had massive radical changes, Mario World was the most different title, and really that only affected the structure and formula of a game that otherwise played the same
I certainly didn't want the original formula back again. I want Mario games to get bigger, not smaller.

The Pokemon series in this respect is not the same at all. They've been churning out games with very similar gameplay for nearly 15 years.

Because GameFreak want to keep the mainseries the same. The new gameplay is for the spin-offs which everyone ignores, like I said before.

but just arguing that its not really fair to compare it to Mario.

The reason I compared it to Mario in the first place was to defend it against those who would say "oh mah gad same game as 15 years ago man you guys so silly being excited", when Pokémon has made tons of changes that people just conveniently ignore.

@ PMD, I personally hope it never goes fully 3D, Pokémon needs sprites, nicely animated and drawn sprites. 3D just doesn't have that charm to it. The environments being 3D and everything else being 2D is perfect for Pokémon, now all it needs is hand drawn sprites and amazing animations.

( Edited 11.04.2010 11:11 by SuperLink )

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J4K 11.04.2010#21

This is BS, the 2D Mario series has never had massive radical changes, Mario World was the most different title, and really that only affected the structure and formula of a game that otherwise played the same

You keep saying the 2D Mario Series because that suits your argument. The reality is that they are all one series. The Mario sereies had a massive revolution when he came unto the N64. The series radically changed then. Pokemon hasn't done anything comparable to this.

New Super Mario Bros is a tribute to fans who missed that oldschool formula, because they hadn't seen it in 20 years. Personally though, I think adding four player co-op to the sidescroller formula is bigger than any change Pokemon has ever seen. But that's beside the point. The only way it would really be comparable is if Pokemon went through a similar radical change, and then decades later released a few side-games with the oldschool gameplay to please fans who had been there since the beginning.

I certainly didn't want the original formula back again.

I certainly did! And 30 million or so people appreciated the game.

The new gameplay is for the spin-offs which everyone ignores, like I said before.

Aren't those ignored because the gameplay is a bit, well, shallow and crappy? That's what I've always heard.

Again though, I don't have anything against the series. I think I might be buying Soulsilver next weekend! I just don't think the comparison is fair because it ignores the fact that the mainline Mario series actually shifted dramatically.

( Edited 11.04.2010 17:50 by Jacob4000 )

JoshSL 11.04.2010#22

Jacob4000 said:
You keep saying the 2D Mario Series because that suits your argument. The reality is that they are all one series. The Mario sereies had a massive revolution when he came unto the N64. The series radically changed then. Pokemon hasn't done anything comparable to this.

But Pokémon have plenty of important spin-off series' now, all hugely different from the originals. If it's not ok for me to ignore 3D Mario then it's not ok for everyone else to ignore the spinoffs.

The reality is that they're all one series, the other Pokémon titles have been developed and evolved under GameFreak's development and guidance.

New Super Mario Bros is a tribute to fans who missed that oldschool formula, because they hadn't seen it in 20 years.

Yeah, twice a few years in a row with hardly any fundamental differences. The only different 2D Mario game ever made was Mario World. How can people miss a formula done to death over that?

Personally though, I think adding four player co-op to the sidescroller formula is bigger than any change Pokemon has ever seen.

Haha, as if adding CoOp to a genre that's had CoOp of the same quality for over a decade is bigger than adding online battling and trading to Pokémon as soon as online became an important part of modern gaming.

The only way it would really be comparable is if Pokemon went through a similar radical change, and then decades later released a few side-games with the oldschool gameplay to please fans who had been there since the beginning.

I've already said tons of times though.
- GameFreak do not plan on making radical changes to the mainseries, they made this decision so the classic gameplay will always be there for fans who want it. They will still be actually evolving the franchise though (as anyone who still plays the games will see as plain as day), unlike 2D Mario which took a few steps forward then decided the water was too cold.
- Ideas for radical changes will be implemented into spinoffs
- 3D Mario is almost a differen genre altogether to 2D Mario, they're not even comparable in terms of formula or gameplay. That's not a radical change, Nintendo and the fans now see 2D and 3D Marios as seperate series'

Proof? 3D Mario excites me every single time, but 2D Mario now bores me because of its desire to cling to 1985.

I certainly did! And 30 million or so people appreciated the game.

Appreciating is different from loving, I appreciated that it introduced multiplayer but I would have far preferred a game that actually evolved the series, seeing as we got pretty much the exact same thing a few years earlier on DS.

Aren't those ignored because the gameplay is a bit, well, shallow and crappy? That's what I've always heard.

That's false. Pokémon Ranger has always been very good, real-time gameplay, the games have been getting quite a lot deeper as more games are released and the series grows in popularity. Can't comment on Mystery Dungeon (although I hear the plot/character development is supposed to be superior to that of the mainseries). Also the Pikachu Adventure game is supposed to be good.

Disclaimer: I'm only attacking 2D Mario because it's more guilty than mainseries Pokémon of refusing to evolve, and so many people just can't see this, particularly people who have no idea just how much Pokémon has evolved. I do still enjoy 2D Mario, it's just not fair that Pokémon gets so much grief when everyone's favourite plumber is worse.

( Edited 11.04.2010 18:17 by SuperLink )

Edit this post:

[quote][b]Jacob4000 said:[/b]<br/>You keep saying the [i]2D Mario Series[/i] because that suits your argument. The reality is that they are all one series. The Mario sereies had a massive revolution when he came unto the N64. The series [i]radically changed then[/i]. Pokemon hasn't done anything comparable to this.[/quote]
But Pokémon have plenty of important spin-off series' now, all hugely different from the originals. If it's not ok for me to ignore 3D Mario then it's not ok for everyone else to ignore the spinoffs.

The reality is that they're all one series, the other Pokémon titles have been developed and evolved under GameFreak's development and guidance.

[quote]New Super Mario Bros is a tribute to fans who missed that oldschool formula, because they hadn't seen it in 20 years.[/quote]
Yeah, twice a few years in a row with hardly any fundamental differences. The only different 2D Mario game ever made was Mario World. How can people miss a formula done to death over that?

[quote]Personally though, I think adding four player co-op to the sidescroller formula is bigger than any change Pokemon has ever seen.[/quote]
Haha, as if adding CoOp to a genre that's had CoOp of the same quality for over a decade is bigger than adding online battling and trading to Pokémon as soon as online became an important part of modern gaming.

[quote]The only way it would really be comparable is if Pokemon went through a similar radical change, and then decades later released a few side-games with the oldschool gameplay to please fans who had been there since the beginning.[/quote]
I've already said tons of times though.
- GameFreak do not plan on making radical changes to the mainseries, they made this decision so the classic gameplay will always be there for fans who want it. They will still be [i]actually evolving[/i] the franchise though (as anyone who still plays the games will see as plain as day), unlike 2D Mario which took a few steps forward then decided the water was too cold.
- Ideas for radical changes will be implemented into spinoffs
- 3D Mario is almost a differen genre altogether to 2D Mario, they're not even comparable in terms of formula or gameplay. That's not a radical change, Nintendo [i]and[/i] the fans now see 2D and 3D Marios as seperate series'

Proof? 3D Mario excites me every single time, but 2D Mario now bores me because of its desire to cling to 1985.

[quote]I certainly did! And 30 million or so people appreciated the game.[/quote]
Appreciating is different from loving, I appreciated that it introduced multiplayer but I would have far preferred a game that actually evolved the series, seeing as we got pretty much the exact same thing a few years earlier on DS.

[quote]Aren't those ignored because the gameplay is a bit, well, shallow and crappy? That's what I've always heard. [/quote]
That's false. Pokémon Ranger has always been very good, real-time gameplay, the games have been getting quite a lot deeper as more games are released and the series grows in popularity. Can't comment on Mystery Dungeon (although I hear the plot/character development is supposed to be superior to that of the mainseries). Also the Pikachu Adventure game is supposed to be good.

[b]Disclaimer:[/b] I'm only attacking 2D Mario because it's more guilty than mainseries Pokémon of refusing to evolve, and so many people just can't see this, particularly people who have no idea just how much Pokémon has evolved. I do still enjoy 2D Mario, it's just not fair that Pokémon gets so much grief when everyone's favourite plumber is worse.

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J4K 11.04.2010#23

GameFreak do not plan on making radical changes to the mainseries, they made this decision so the classic gameplay will always be there for fans who want it. They will still be actually evolving the franchise though (as anyone who still plays the games will see as plain as day), unlike 2D Mario which took a few steps forward then decided the water was too cold.

That's why its fundamentally different than Mario. Ninteno did make changes. The two are working in the reverse here. Nintendo made massive changes to Mario, and then made the oldschool style the side series.

Pokemon's main series has stayed the same, with its experimenting done with its sidegames. Its certainly different.

Proof? 3D Mario excites me every single time, but 2D Mario now bores me because of its desire to cling to 1985.

I dunno - you can argue that they change a lot, but this line stills cracks me up coming from a Pokemon fan. Again, I'm not disparaging the series for not making radical changes, I'm just saying its path is not the same as Marios. Mario already went through his significant changes. The 2D stuff is just for the fans who miss the oldschool. Just because you didn't doesn't mean there aren't people out there who did miss it.

Haha, as if adding CoOp to a genre that's had CoOp of the same quality for over a decade is bigger than adding online battling and trading as soon to Pokémon as soon as they became important features in modern gaming.

Wow wow we aren't talking about evolving the genre, we're talking about evolving the series. Second of all, adding four player co-op fundamentally changes the way you both design a level and play it. Online trading just took something that pokemon had done for a decade and a half and extend it. That is all. Its freaking cool certainly, but it doesn't fundamentally alter the gameplay like having four people on screen at once can. It merely expands functionality. It definitely makes the game better, but its not a radical change.

3D Mario is almost a differen genre altogether to 2D Mario, they're not even comparable in terms of formula or gameplay. That's not a radical change, Nintendo and the fans now see 2D and 3D Marios as seperate series'

That's exactly what I'm saying. Nintendo got radical with the mainline series. Completely altered it. Pokemon hasn't done this. They keep the changes as you've mentioned to their lower key spin-offs. And I think that's what people complain about. They want Gamefreak to do what Nintendo did with Mario -- make some radical changes to the mainline series.

Appreciating is different from loving, I appreciated that it introduced multiplayer but I would have far preferred a game that actually evolved the series, seeing as we got pretty much the exact same thing a few years earlier on DS.

You're acting like the 30 million people who bought both games see it exactly like you do. Come on. There are probably a lot of people like you, and alot of people like me. Bottom line is that there is an audience there who are enthusiastic about the game, or it couldn't have sold so well.

I'm only attacking 2D Mario because it's more guilty than mainseries Pokémon of refusing to evolve, and so many people just can't see this, particularly people who have no idea just how much Pokémon has evolved. I do still enjoy 2D Mario, it's just not fair that Pokémon gets so much grief when everyone's favourite plumber is worse.

Okay then. Maybe we're having a misunderstanding here then? I see them all as one series until the N64 -- then the 3D way become the main series, which represented a huge shift for the Mario line. Hence my argument that its changed hugely.

I'm not arguing that 2D Mario has though. I think co-op is a big change, but in general it has stayed the same. And that's perfectly cool with me. But certainly you can see that Pokemon hasn't really changed either? I think only die-hard Pokemon fans see things like berries and adding another 100 pokemon as being "big changes". The rest of the world rolls their eyes and wonders when its really going to change.

( Edited 11.04.2010 18:30 by Jacob4000 )

Edit this post:

[quote][u]GameFreak do not plan on making radical changes to the mainseries[/u], they made this decision so the classic gameplay will always be there for fans who want it. They will still be actually evolving the franchise though (as anyone who still plays the games will see as plain as day), unlike 2D Mario which took a few steps forward then decided the water was too cold. [/quote]

[i]That's why its fundamentally different than Mario.[/i] Ninteno [i]did[/i] make changes. The two are working in the reverse here. Nintendo made massive changes to Mario, and then made the oldschool style the side series.

Pokemon's main series has stayed the same, with its experimenting done with its sidegames. Its certainly different.

[quote]
Proof? 3D Mario excites me every single time, but 2D Mario now bores me because of its desire to cling to 1985. [/quote]

I dunno -  you can argue that they change a lot, but this line stills cracks me up coming from a Pokemon fan. Again, I'm not disparaging the series for not making radical changes, I'm just saying its path is not the same as Marios. Mario already went through his significant changes. The 2D stuff is just for the fans who miss the oldschool. Just because you didn't doesn't mean there aren't people out there who did miss it.

[quote]Haha, as if adding CoOp to a genre that's had CoOp of the same quality for over a decade is bigger than adding online battling and trading as soon to Pokémon as soon as they became important features in modern gaming. [/quote]

Wow wow we aren't talking about evolving the genre, we're talking about evolving the series. Second of all, adding four player co-op fundamentally changes the way you both design a level and play it. Online trading just took something that pokemon had done for a decade and a half and extend it. That is all. Its freaking cool certainly, but it doesn't fundamentally alter the gameplay like having four people on screen at once can. It merely expands functionality. It definitely makes the game better, but its not a radical change.

[quote]3D Mario is almost a differen genre altogether to 2D Mario, they're not even comparable in terms of formula or gameplay. That's not a radical change, Nintendo and the fans now see 2D and 3D Marios as seperate series'
 [/quote]

[i]That's exactly what I'm saying[/i]. Nintendo got radical with the mainline series. Completely altered it. Pokemon hasn't done this. They keep the changes as you've mentioned to their lower key spin-offs. And I think that's what people complain about. They want Gamefreak to do what Nintendo did with Mario -- make some radical changes to the mainline series.

[quote]Appreciating is different from loving, I appreciated that it introduced multiplayer but I would have far preferred a game that actually evolved the series, seeing as we got pretty much the exact same thing a few years earlier on DS. [/quote]

You're acting like the 30 million people who bought both games see it exactly like you do. Come on. There are probably a lot of people like you, and alot of people like me. Bottom line is that there is an audience there who are enthusiastic about the game, or it couldn't have sold so well.

[quote]I'm only attacking 2D Mario because it's more guilty than mainseries Pokémon of refusing to evolve, and so many people just can't see this, particularly people who have no idea just how much Pokémon has evolved. I do still enjoy 2D Mario, it's just not fair that Pokémon gets so much grief when everyone's favourite plumber is worse.[/quote]

Okay then. Maybe we're having a misunderstanding here then? I see them all as one series until the N64 -- then the 3D way become the main series, which represented a huge shift for the Mario line. Hence my argument that its changed hugely.

I'm not arguing that 2D Mario has though. I think co-op is a big change, but in general it has stayed the same. And that's perfectly cool with me. But certainly you can see that Pokemon hasn't really changed either? I think only die-hard Pokemon fans see things like berries and adding another 100 pokemon as being "big changes". The rest of the world rolls their eyes and wonders when its [i]really[/i] going to change.

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JoshSL 11.04.2010#24

Jacob4000 said:
That's why its fundamentally different than Mario. Ninteno did make changes. The two are working in the reverse here. Nintendo made massive changes to Mario, and then made the oldschool style the side series.
Pokemon's main series has stayed the same, with its experimenting done with its sidegames. Its certainly different.

I consider Mario to be in 2 different mainseries' though, because they keep making both types of game, just like GameFreak keep making mainseries Pokémon alongside 2 or 3 hugly different spinoff series'

I dunno - you can argue that they change a lot, but this line stills cracks me up coming from a Pokemon fan.

I'm not talking about radical change with Pokémon though, I'm talking about how they've evolved the series. My original point all along was:
Pokémon has evolved more than 2D Mario, and its spinoffs have fundamentally changed the gameplay in many different ways.

Mario already went through his significant changes. The 2D stuff is just for the fans who miss the oldschool. Just because you didn't doesn't mean there aren't people out there who did miss it.

As did Pokémon, in spin offs. The mainseries will stay with the same fundamentals for those who love it, while evolving the surrounding gameplay considerably every generation.

Second of all, adding four player co-op fundamentally changes the way you both design a level and play it.

It never seemed to greatly affect other CoOp games. When you play NSMBW in one player, it's same old same old, and you could barely tell that the levels were created with CoOp in mind.

And speaking of which, some of the stages are so "non-CoOp friendly" it's frustrating.

Its freaking cool certainly, but it doesn't fundamentally alter the gameplay like having four people on screen at once can.

Having 4 people on screen doing the same thing they've been doing for over 20 years isn't a fundamental change. The game is the same, just with more people doing the same thing. Don't start with the grabbing and throwing, because that's an incredibly simple mechanic (that should be optional) that was often far more annoying than fun.

It definitely makes the game better, but its not a radical change.

Same to multiplayer in 2D Mario. It's about a decade late too. I wonder when it'll ever get online play?

They keep the changes as you've mentioned to their lower key spin-offs. And I think that's what people complain about.

Why are they complaining when they probably haven't even tried the spinoffs?

They want Gamefreak to do what Nintendo did with Mario -- make some radical changes to the mainline series.

I want Nintendo to make radical changes to 2D Mario, but they aren't going to even evolve it. Including the spinoffs, Pokémon has more gameplay styles than Mario.

it couldn't have sold so well.

A large part of that was the words on the box.

Okay then. Maybe we're having a misunderstanding here then? I see them all as one series until the N64 -- then the 3D way become the main series, which represented a huge shift for the Mario line. Hence my argument that its changed hugely.

I'm mainly arguing about why 2D Mario hasn't evolved here. I love 3D Mario, because it keeps changing. As a matter of fact I think the changes 3D Mario has gone through in its only 3 games are more notable than most of mainseries Pokémon's changes, but my argument was never about 3D Mario.

But certainly you can see that Pokemon hasn't really changed either? I think only die-hard Pokemon fans see things like berries and adding another 100 pokemon as being "big changes". The rest of the world rolls their eyes and wonders when its really going to change.

No, the only ones who can't see that is has changes are the people who don't play proper attention to the series. I'm not even talking about new items and new Pokémon, and if so only very specific kinds that really alter the way you play.

As I linked to before...
As an RPG, these are some pretty huge changes to the battle mechanics/system, and that's completely ignoring all the changes made to other aspects of the games too.
2D Mario has recently introduced butt stomp, wall jump, multiplayer, and that's it (multiplayer might not even be a mainstay, I really hope it is). That's within Pokémon's entire lifecycle.

( Edited 11.04.2010 18:54 by SuperLink )

Edit this post:

[quote][b]Jacob4000 said:[/b]<br/>[i]That's why its fundamentally different than Mario.[/i] Ninteno [i]did[/i] make changes. The two are working in the reverse here. Nintendo made massive changes to Mario, and then made the oldschool style the side series.

Pokemon's main series has stayed the same, with its experimenting done with its sidegames. Its certainly different.[/quote]
I consider Mario to be in 2 different mainseries' though, because they keep making both types of game, just like GameFreak keep making mainseries Pokémon alongside 2 or 3 hugly different spinoff series'

[quote]I dunno -  you can argue that they change a lot, but this line stills cracks me up coming from a Pokemon fan.[/quote]
I'm not talking about radical change with Pokémon though, I'm talking about how they've [i]evolved[/i] the series. My original point [i]all along[/i] was:
[b]Pokémon has evolved more than 2D Mario, and its spinoffs have fundamentally changed the gameplay in [i]many[/i] different ways.[/b]

[quote]Mario already went through his significant changes. The 2D stuff is just for the fans who miss the oldschool. Just because you didn't doesn't mean there aren't people out there who did miss it.[/quote]
As did Pokémon, in spin offs. The mainseries will stay with the same fundamentals for those who love it, while evolving the surrounding gameplay considerably every generation.

[quote]Second of all, adding four player co-op fundamentally changes the way you both design a level and play it.[/quote]
It never seemed to greatly affect other CoOp games. When you play NSMBW in one player, it's same old same old, and you could barely tell that the levels were created with CoOp in mind.

And speaking of which, some of the stages are so "non-CoOp friendly" it's frustrating.

[quote]Its freaking cool certainly, but it doesn't fundamentally alter the gameplay like having four people on screen at once can.[/quote]
Having 4 people on screen doing the same thing they've been doing for over 20 years isn't a fundamental change. The game is the same, just with more people doing the same thing. Don't start with the grabbing and throwing, because that's an incredibly simple mechanic (that should be optional) that was often far more annoying than fun.

[quote]It definitely makes the game better, but its not a radical change.[/quote]
Same to multiplayer in 2D Mario. It's about a decade late too. I wonder when it'll ever get online play?

[quote]They keep the changes as you've mentioned to their lower key spin-offs. And I think that's what people complain about.[/quote]
Why are they complaining when they probably haven't even tried the spinoffs?

[quote]They want Gamefreak to do what Nintendo did with Mario -- make some radical changes to the mainline series.[/quote]
I want Nintendo to make radical changes to 2D Mario, but they aren't going to even evolve it. Including the spinoffs, Pokémon has more gameplay styles than Mario.

[quote]it couldn't have sold so well. [/quote]
A large part of that was the words on the box.

[quote]Okay then. Maybe we're having a misunderstanding here then? I see them all as one series until the N64 -- then the 3D way become the main series, which represented a huge shift for the Mario line. Hence my argument that its changed hugely.[/quote]
I'm mainly arguing about why 2D Mario hasn't evolved here. I love 3D Mario, because it [i]keeps changing[/i]. As a matter of fact I think the changes 3D Mario has gone through in its only 3 games are more notable than most of mainseries Pokémon's changes, but my argument was never about 3D Mario.

[quote]But certainly you can see that Pokemon hasn't really changed either? I think only die-hard Pokemon fans see things like berries and adding another 100 pokemon as being "big changes". The rest of the world rolls their eyes and wonders when its really going to change.[/quote]
No, the only ones who can't see that is [i]has[/i] changes are the people who don't play proper attention to the series. I'm not even [i]talking[/i] about new items and new Pokémon, and if so only very specific kinds that really alter the way you play.

[url=http://board.sonicstadium.org/topic/259-the-pokemans-thread/page__st__1800__p__147715&#entry147715]As I linked to before...[/url]
As an RPG, these are some pretty huge changes to the battle mechanics/system, and that's completely ignoring all the changes made to other aspects of the games too.
2D Mario has recently introduced butt stomp, wall jump, multiplayer, and that's it (multiplayer might not even be a mainstay, I really hope it is). That's within Pokémon's entire lifecycle.

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J4K 12.04.2010#25

I think you need to put C3 Pokemon Defense force in your sig too. Smilie