The Zelda series: Where should it go next?

Though that, since the next big Zelda is clearly quite a way off, perhaps pooling some ideas together for the future of the series would be useful. I know companies do, more and more, read various internet forums for customer feedback, etc. Maybe this is wishful thinking, but as the 'biggest Nintendo website in Europe' (fact check?), a thread dedicated to this very subject might find the right eyes, and since the game should still be early-ish in development, it'll maybe even do some good. Probably not, but even so, can't hurt to have a thread on the subject.

Most of you will know my thoughts on 'Twilight Princess, which I don't want to go over again (here's my review of TP if you don't know what I thought about it, and want to know). Most of you disagreed with me, but the general consensus was that while it was a typically solid Nintendo Zelda game, the same old formulas, gameplay, and even some trademark Zelda clich�s are growing very tired and aged indeed. Didn't ruin the game for most of you, by any means. Marred it somewhat for the majority of people.

They're clearly already going to be doing something different, since they said that TP was "the last traditional Zelda game". So it's safe to assume that a lot is going to change, but I imagine it'll be mostly to do with the controls, which might not be enough in Zelda's case. For the purpose of this thread, let's not focus on Wiimote controls, and focus on the actual game content. Let's list some things that we each would like, and then discuss each others' points. For me:

The old structure has to go:

This is the biggest point of needed change, in my opinion. The old "young boy in village, dungeon, small keys, map, compass, weapon, boss, repeat ad nauseam until Ganondorf boss fight" thing has got to change. It's a very rigid structure, and has just been done to death. They could be the most wonderfully-designed dungeons ever, but it's just too predictable. Some new items and new Wiimote controls will not make this structure any less aged.

I know some would say that so too do many other series' follow a certain 'structure'. But none are so simple, and few are so old as Zelda. Also in Zelda's case, because only a very simple game is laid on top of that simple structure, the structure itself is as apparent as the game. Furthermore, it doesn't matter that the game itself, in terms of storyline and gameplay, has remained pretty much identical for years and years.

Stronger storyline:

This could be achieved in too many ways to mention. The series could use a stronger narrative in the future, and more focused direction.

Voice acting:

Controversial, but before you all shriek, when I say voice acting, I picture Zelda being wholly and massively improved buy characters talking non-existent languages, like in Ico and Shadow of the Colossus. While in the latter two games, you're obviously reliant on the subtitles to make head nor tail of what's being said, the fact that the characters are audibly speaking allows them to actually emote. The end scene of SotC just wouldn't have been the same without the voices.

So I'm not suggesting Link have some corny, whiny American kid voice.

Zelda's overworld is pathetic by today's standards:

It was impressive in 1998, admirable in 2000, non-existent in 2002, and embarrassing in 2006. It's tiny, completely featureless, and really quite boring. Featureless/barren is OK if you're Ico/SotC, since those games are going for the 'isolation' vibe. But even then though, the world in SotC was really big, and packed full of interesting places to see. Half the fun was exploring. However, Zelda is typically set in a world populated by four or more whole races of beings. A featureless overworld is just stupid.

A leaf could definitely be taken out of Shenmue's book, with this. Strangely, it did seem that Zelda was going that way when Majora's Mask (which to date is still the most vibrant and 'alive' Zelda), but has since returned to stationary people, or people on looped paths. It's just not convincing. The townsfolk need believable schedules and lives, like in Majora's Mask/Shenmue.

Also, as far as the gameplay is concerned, if the overworld is going to be so tiny, then there needs to be more focused direction for the player. MGS for example has a similarly tiny 'world', but since you're always on such a linear path, you just don't notice. Either that, or they need to make it bigger. Elder Scrolls has raised the bar in terms of adventure game world size.

The money system needs an overhaul:

Let's face it- the money system in Zelda is a complete farce. You go round cutting grass and stupid stuff like that, and finding money. It's just pointless. They may as well just start you out with a wallet that has unlimited funds. Perhaps Link could do things like hunting, and selling his catches at the meat market and stuff like that? Wouldn't make the money system a drag or anything, but it wouldn't be a complete joke like it currently is.

Discuss.

I don\'t necessarily think they need to change the so called rigid structure, Zelda is what Zelda is, solving puzzles in dungeons. Do they need to change it up and make it less of a predictable \'water, forest, fire\' thing? Yes, but I don\'t think they should throw out dungeons entirely.

I do agree with you that the series needs an overhaul, and I agree on several of yours points, namely:

The Overworld

I actually enjoyed TP\'s overworld. It was decent sized, and I loved riding around strafing baddies and catching bugs. But what it really came down to was that it was fairly lifeless. It was more like someone\'s back yard than a real, breathing world. And that\'s where it had a problem.

Where were the little scattered towns, the farms, the people? As I said, it was a back yard. A fun one perhaps, but the next Zelda is going to have to do a better job of convincing me that I\'m in a real world. It needs more towns, small villages, and perhaps a few more \'cities\' than just Hyrule city itself.

I can\'t believe they haven\'t done more with the Zoras. Really, have they ever heard of Atlantis? A truly large, underwater city would simply be amazing.

The Monetary System

I think you nailed it there. Its pretty sad that when you need more cash, the first thing you do is start to breaking pots or mowing down shrubbery. Selling the golden bugs to the creepy girl was something, but it wasn\'t quite there.

They need to make a better economy. Let me sell the fish I\'ve been catching. Give me a few job options if I need money. Heck, set up a mercenary center. Part of creating a larger world could open up some pretty awesome missions, from your standard fetch quests, to rescue missions or even covert operations.

Better Story

I thought the story they had was pretty good, but it fell a bit flat in the middle. They could definitely go with something a bit livelier though. They don\'t need to go all emo like Final Fantasy, but the story needs to be an excellent epic on its own.

They need to bring Link more character as well. Maybe not voice acting for him, since they seem so against it. But he needs to become more than the nothing he is now.

When it comes down to it, most of these things start with a better world to inhabit. That\'s really where Nintendo needs to spend its time. They\'re good at polish and high quality, now they need to be a bit more ambitious with it.

( Edited 21.07.2008 03:47 by Jacob4000 )

The worlds i liked most were from Windwaker and Majora's Mask. And I agree with you in many ways, as for the voice acting, it would be cool to be spoken in tongues or weird languages, with subtitles in the bottom. But I really doubt Nintendo would hire people to do voices, the less hiring, the more money for them. And, its a big risk I doubt Nintendo would take.

This topic/discussion idea has pretty much been done to death (pretty sure a future of Zelda topic does exist), but as you put a crap load of effortsta into starting post we may as well reboot the Zelda discussion (especially given recent 1:1 MotionPlus).

Pretty much agree with most, if not all of your points.

I've give my Zelda thoughts in past topics/news comments, but to quickly summarise:

Fuck you, triple gems
Gems. Orbs. Medallions. Lovely and shiny as they are, it's incredibly predictable. They did it in A Link to the Past, then pretended the formula was totally new in Ocarina of Time, mixed it up in Majora's Mask then decided to go back over a decade in WW, rinse and repeat. TP did it also.

"Link!"
"..."
"There's 3 little things you've got to collect."
"..."
"One will be in a forest area. One will be in the mountains. One will be in the land of naked fish."
"..."
"Once you collect all three, something bad will happen and you'll have to get 5 or 7 more. It depends on how much pot Miyamoto is smoking."
"..."
"Oh, and Ganondorf will do shit all until you walk into his castle."

It's so, so predictable. Still fun. But loses the importance and push to continue further. I agree that controls won't make this structure any different. Even giving Link a 3D role, a decent inventory and camera Z-targeting in Ocarina of Time (1998) still saw the basic structure follow the 2D Link to the Past (1991).

An awesome outing that worked well was Link's Awakening. Such a fucking refreshing take on the series. Sure, still dungeons, but a lot of it had new names, completely new locations and no sign of recycling the old Hyrule formula.

Scrap the elements
Argh. Forest. Fire. Water. Shadow. Penis.

It's been reused and recycled more than a few times now, and you can virtually guess what'll come next, or will eventually spring up. I'd like to see less enclosed dungeons, but perhaps areas overlapping with the overworld - less boss keys and more random and unexpected events. I loved the Snowpeak House in TP, a fresh and interesting dungeon. Sure it had the same rigid boss key, item, map element to it, but it took a risk to have a different feel to the rest.

Down with Ganondorf
He's fat, boring, and really recycled. Heck even his Wizard chum in Zelda: A Link to the Past uses the same boss techniques as Ganondorf uses in Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess (the idea of deflecting a ball back at him).

I think Ganondorf needs something different, perhaps a more minor roll and if Link does have to come up against him, please, please for the love of God don't recycle the energy deflecting sequence.

A loved what TP started but kinda failed in doing: enemy presence throughout the game. Zant makes some appearances at times you may have not expected and this really creates a more realistic "bad guy" feel to the game. If you were a baddie would you really sit in your castle fapping away until the hero comes to the rescue? Nah. If Ganon is needed then really give him more reason, character, encounters throughout the story.

Bring back small villages and random houses
I love houses. I love NPCs and the adventure shit that Zelda should be. Venturing into new places, meeting new people. Older Zelda games like Link's Awakening and Link to the Past had more smaller houses and villages scattered about.

I want to be able to build up relationships with characters, come back and find something different and relevant. Zelda games have done this, some better than others (e.g. Majoara's Mask's subquests and some of the mini-quests in Wind Waker), but it's just touching on the surface. I want to be able to find items in dungeons that'll be relevant to NPCs, that'll unlock areas in the overworld.

A time aspect would help. Sure there's day and night, but it'll be good to randomise and bring more realism to characters to make you want to talk to them and interact with them. It shouldn't be like the one-liner 8-bit days, "Come inside and I will help you." A diary/schedule system would be great, and possibly have paths/locations only available at very select times to play out the game a bit, have multiple side quests that can be done in different orders to vary the outcome.

More varied mini-games
TP was seriously lacking mini-games. Shootout it had, but not as decent as Ocarina of Time or Majora's. I want to be able to use my equipment outside of dungeons and get something out of it. TP lacked horse-back archery, standard shooting and more.

Would love to see more sword, horse, bomb related events to get through. Competitions with NPCs in a sort of "Zelda Olympics" style sub-quest would be awesome, going up against NPCs you've made friends with.

Scrap the Master Sword
Well, not entirely. But less pedestal, temple of time/forest rehashes. Have a different way of obtaining it, or have it get battered up and Link having to go without a sword for some time till he finds a new blade.

NPC and Story improvements
I want a story. None of this skimming around recycled save the princess stuff. Have link meet a load of new faces and get to know a fair few. Have random encounters, fights, relationships, sub-quests. Things to remember and have a huge impact on the game. It shouldn't be all about dungeons, which the more recent Zeldas have swayed to becoming.

Link should get pissed. Out of control. Upset, mournful. Happy, crazily excited. He shouldn't just be a silent little bugger with a sword, nor should the people he meet be so 1-dimensional either.

Overall Zelda needs to take inspiration from other games, and take a risk. Spend more time on characters and new settings/plot than beefing up the visuals and number of dungeons. I'd honestly be happy with 5 rock solid, mother-fucker dungeons and a load of smaller, story-driven areas and events that make it seem like an unpredictable, sporadic adventure and not a conveyor belt of dungeons.

I loved the Snowpeak House in TP, a fresh and interesting dungeon. Sure it had the same rigid boss key, item, map element to it, but it took a risk to have a different feel to the rest.

Snowpeak house was my favorite dungeon, hands down. It had this amazing atmosphere.

This somewhat out of the blue, but when you think about it, I think A Link to the Past has had the best world out of any Zelda. It felt the most alive to me.

Snowpeak was fucking awful. It was pretty an' all but the whole concept was just abysmal.

"Oh go here"
"oh shi- I'm stupid"
"Go here"

By this point I was pissed off. Not to mention the fact you could restore your health whenever you want in about 10 seconds.

knighty said:
Snowpeak was fucking awful. It was pretty an' all but the whole concept was just abysmal.

"Oh go here"
"oh shi- I'm stupid"
"Go here"

By this point I was pissed off. Not to mention the fact you could restore your health whenever you want in about 10 seconds.

nice sig btw

I think you\'ve nailed it Oni, the old structure is getting ridiculous and seriously bringing down the rest of the game. I agree with everything even the voice acting. Having Midna type gibberish would be fine for me.

My biggest desire for the series is for there to be some connection between the zelda games, Nintendo refuses to connect the games no matter what. Wind Waker had the set up so well for a prequel and a sequel, yet it got none. Instead for Phantom Hourglass they made link teleport to some unknown place instead of expanding Hyrule, or finding a new continent. Please explain the flooding of Hyrule, they could do it as a sequel for TP. Link goes mad trying to get back to Midna and does something horrible on the way of producing it. The hero never comes to save the day because the hero was link, and he is now the one stirring the trouble.

Second, if they insist to have parallel universes, why not make it connected to the Old Hyrule, I mean from a gameplay perspective. I mean they were on the right track with the Twilight Realm, but they never really expanded on it, we were restricted to only the Twilight Palace (which was cool).

Thirdly, the overworld needs to be more inhabited. I mean you couldn\'t even find a some village in Gerudo Valley. And Kariko village had no one in it, bar the kids from Ordon. You couldn\'t comprehend my disappointment when I found out the Hidden Village was empty... its stupid.

Fourthly, allow some NPCs to be asked questions. Sometimes I want to hear more, I want to learn about the history of the person I am talking to. Allow there to be different questions to ask certain NPCs like a lot of RPGs such as Neverwinter Nights allows. Doesn\'t have to the same scale, but make a compromise on some important NPCs. Its incredibly annoying hearing the samething whenever you talk to an important NPC.

Finally, please adopt a post-imperial context for the next setting. It could fit easily into the game, especially post-WW.

oh btw, Snowpeak was horrible.

( Edited 21.07.2008 06:07 by iCAME )

I agree completely with everything you said, especially the money part... I always remember coming out of dungeons, and having maxed out money. They shouldn\'t bother adding a money system if collecting it is so easy. Its underwater, in grass, trees... the only part that makes sense is that its in enemies, but with amounts upwards of 10 ruppees per kill, you can easily get maxed out. Instead, make enemies drop nothing unless they take even a sliver of effort, and even then only give you 1 or 2 ruppees. Your hunting idea is very appealing, as with Jacob\'s mercinary jobs idea. but I think Nintendo would stay away from things like that, it just doesn\'t seem like something they would consider. Adding hunting could be done as an effective way to add a job of sorts, and it could happen, but I doubt it.

( Edited 21.07.2008 07:43 by jon.meade )

I think that Zelda could blatantly rip off card captors. As in, you assign a card to a button,like with items, and they'll help you get to a certain point, or help you fight a battle. Link could still have Items, like the Heros bow and the magic hammer. But if he needs to get somewheere in a certain time limit, and epona isn't fast enough and you can't teleport, you can call on a fly card which could give link wings and fly above hyrule at 100mph, or something. Or the ime card which would stop the enemies for a few seconds so you could kill them easier.Which all these link could have a voice and a quick(like for 2 seconds)animation of the card transforming into a spirt and you seeing it help.

The world could be the Great crystal city of hyrule, in it's prime, before the flood, then one day, it started to rain, and it wouldn't stop raining, and link set out to find the reason.(it could be set centuries after the Wind waker aswell). And in the sense that it's one big city, it would be alot more lively. People will talk to you.

The style could be anime. I think it would work perfectly with Zelda.

There should also be a totaly new enemy. Maybe it could be a woman, or maybe it could be the shadow creatures that abused the power of the gods(the power that midna had in TP). So the Goddesses would have to create the triforce and give it to three seperate people who would eventually team up and stop it. gannondorf could be good for once, but then once sending the evil to the twilight realm, be come corrupt but link then kills him and joins the tri-force.

I agree that the elemental dungeons need to go and be a bit more challenging.

somthing new all i ask or a zelda MM2?

The style could be anime. I think it would work perfectly with Zelda.

Zelda does have an anime look though.

I reiterate my 'Zelda in the Sky' idea here as well then. The series has been on Land and Sea so far, the air seems the next logical step. Use a bird/dragon as transport, have new kinds of gravity-based puzzles and dungeons, maybe even meet the Goddesses.
Base the title during the great flood, when half of Hyrule's citizens flee to the mountaintops, and the other half are taken by the goddesses to the lands of the Ooccoo. Get a new hero reminiscent of Link to find the long-lost 4th Triforce piece needed to restore Hyrule after the threat of Ganondorf has passed. Most importantly, give it a new visual style, Cell-shaded and regular can't be the only two.

iCAME said:

The style could be anime. I think it would work perfectly with Zelda.

Zelda does have an anime look though.

Yeah, i guess what I meant was more of a dark anime, like majora's mask only more colours and fluid cartoon animation styles kinda a cross between mm ans ww then.

The old structure has to go
Agreed. I hate going into a dungeon to fight a boss. It always feels like I'm about to kill a POW & no one else felt like doing it.
Stronger storyline
Well it's called The Legend Of Zelda. Not the Ganondorf or Triforce. What does she do to get so much credit besides being a side character?
Voice acting
Agreed. Even if it's gibberish.
Zelda's over world is pathetic by today's standards
Most fields did make me feel like I was in a boxed canyon. If they could get rid of that I think it would be a major improvement.
The money system needs an overhaul
Completely Agree. Money is too easy to come by. Whether out in the field or in a treasure chest. It has just seem too easy to get.

I fear for the worst though...
After Nintendo's Casual E3 I've come to hate Miis... Which is a somewhat shocker to myself because I thought my Mii deserved more... Now I have this fear the next LoZ game will be casual & WW esque or Mii Link can be replaced by my Mii. Bringing in the concept that all future Nintendo titles will be as half assed a they did with Miis to begin with.

The old structure has to go

There's so much that can be done. How about a boss that you meet at random points in the game, without a specific way to kill it? Depending on when/if it was killed could affect the storyline as well. They should limit the amount of dungeons, and even when there is a dungeon they should change the fundamental structure of it.

Stronger storyline/Voice Acting

Zelda's overworld is pathetic by today's standards

The money system needs an overhaul

I'd also like an option on the title menu that takes to straight to a dungeon/boss once you've defeated it in the main game.

Why can't getting out of the dungeon be part of the challenge? (For example, easily stroll through dungeon, collapse a wall when fighting boss, have to go the long way around to get out)

Great idea! I'd love that kinda thing, like the escape from the castle finale in Ocarina of Time. Maybe even have multiple stages in a boss battle. There's usually always more than one attack pattern but usually confined to one room. It'd be good to perhaps have to chase the boss on horseback, or through the dungeon itself as it tries to escape.

I'd like different ways of beating it too. 99% of the time it relies on the dungeon item and your sword. That's about it. Maybe some boots perhaps, but it sort of ends there. I'd be good for a boss to perhaps morph into something else that's resistant to your original attacks so you have to try something totally different - play with the environment a lot more, attacking with what you've got around you.

Could be good also to not have a blatant boss. So perhaps the person you're saving in the dungeon turns around and fucks you over.

It'd be good to have some sort of rival. A really cocky, annoying piece of scum that continually screws you over throughout the game. Part of the pulling factor to continue playing would be seeing the twat get his comeuppance.

I think Link needs company. He needs NPCs to come around with him, and they'll really influence the story. They'll save his ass. Reveal important backstories. Get killed.

I actually prefer the ability to jump straight out of a dungeon rather than make my own way out. Mainly because it makes the boss feel more like an accomplishment and I get scared of failing it afterwards I wouldn't mind a couple like that though, ala Metroid escape sequences.

Midna is fully voiced. Her voice is the perfect example of how Voice Acting could work in Zelda.

I think Nintendo need to take pointers from Okami. Namely loads of side-quests, epicly huge adventure, but not bland or boringly big, and no "dungeons". In Okami is was hard to tell when there was a dungeon. It was all so seamless, and that would be perfect for Zelda.

That's all I'm contributing for the moment. Will post more later.

I think the voice acting is important. If they're going to make the story more prevelant, it's going to fall flat on it's arse without characters who speak. SL's Midna example is a good one. I think they could do it better than that, though. Again all point out Ico and Shadow of the Colossus- the sort of voice work in those games would be perfect for Zelda.

jb said:
This topic/discussion idea has pretty much been done to death (pretty sure a future of Zelda topic does exist), but as you put a crap load of effortsta into starting post we may as well reboot the Zelda discussion (especially given recent 1:1 MotionPlus).

Yeah sorry, I had a feeling there might have been one similar. Still, it's relevant at the moment, given the 'no Zelda for a while' news.

I agree with making main characters speak, and Midna's voice went well with her characters development.

I'm not sure I'd feel great if they gave Link a full speaking part though. I wouldn't say no to having a few phrases he says in Hylean as he fights, and of course more conversation choices. Not just "Yes/No" but maybe a bit more to give Link more of a personality.

Well, again I would point out Ico and Shadow of the Colossus. Protagonists from both of those games speak very little, but they aren't complete mutes like Link. I know Link's lack of voice is supposed to let the player 'impart their own personality unto him' and stuff, but that's just bullshit, really. To really move ahead with a better, deeper storyline- Link needs to have character. He can't just be a literal avatar for the player any longer.

Voice acting must not use babble talk like in Okami, it drives me nuts. It sounds horrible and belongs in the 90s with Banjo.

The whole rupees thing needs changing aswell, TP demonstrated how limited it is currently. When you need to buy something, it's usually expensive which means hours of grass cutting. Then it totally changes and you stock up on rupees only to have nothing to buy.

I also think quests would suit Zelda, ala Oblivion personally. Side stories could be presented using these quests to build a better understanding of the backstory.

shiptoncraig said:
Voice acting must not use babble talk like in Okami, it drives me nuts. It sounds horrible and belongs in the 90s with Banjo.

Yeah that's not what I meant (and I also agree, it's pants in Okami). I meant a fictitious language, like in Ico/SotC. Not random noises.

Yeah Nintendo seem to have plenty of characters/letter lined up to make a Hylean language, now all they need is the speaking to go with them