The return of 2D gaming?

I don't know why people complain about a lack of 2d games anyway, have any of you actually...used the internet? There are THOUSANDS of brilliant 2d games on the pc.

http://www.experimentalgameplay.com

GRUMBLEMASTER said:
I dont get how this is a resurgence. Its never been gone.

qft

pretty imba tbh

knighty said:
I dont know why people complain about a lack of 2d games anyway, have any of you actually...used the internet? There are THOUSANDS of brilliant 2d games on the pc.http://www.experimentalgameplay.com

When did I say Flash games? The reason there aren't many 2d games on consoles anymore is because they're being done so well already on pc by amateurs.

I think it's just one of those things, it'll go in and out of fashion. Retro is very 'cool', at the moment, and so, retro-styled modern games are in demand.

knighty said:
When did I say Flash games? The reason there arent many 2d games on consoles anymore is because theyre being done so well already on pc by amateurs.

Oni-Ninja said:
I think its just one of those things, itll go in and out of fashion. Retro is very cool, at the moment, and so, retro-styled modern games are in demand.

That's because we've never had a portable that matches the power of consoles at the time.

knighty said:
Thats because weve never had a portable that matches the power of consoles at the time.

3D on portable is good, but 3D on home is better IMO. It's just the way a game feels.

SuperLink said:

Oni-Ninja said:I think its just one of those things, itll go in and out of fashion. Retro is very cool, at the moment, and so, retro-styled modern games are in demand.

I personally hop it doesnt go out of fashion, 2D games are so much fun. I think as long as there are consoles like DS & PSP around, there will still be 2D games. 2D & portable are well suited to each other, 3D doesnt work on portable nearly as well as it does with home consoles.

Yeah sure, but if we look at console/PC gaming as an entirely different entity (as I tend to), 2D gaming has had extreme ups and downs over the last fifteen years. From roughly 1995 to the early 2000s, 2D gaming was out in a big way. Especially in the former part of that time-period. When the PlayStation and Saturn hit, it was all about the 3D games. Games were even selling purely because they were 3D.

Then the N64 came along, and showed us what could really be done in a 3-dimensional setting with the amazing Super Mario 64, and 2D gaming took a massive blow, and lay dormant for some years. It's only really in recent years that it's started to creep back into popularity, with games like Viewtiful Joe that, while not actually 2D, harken back to that visual-style very much so, and feature 2D gameplay.

2D has only been the main port of call for handhelds because that's what (until recently) the specifications of portable games machines dictated.

Exactly. Thanks for putting it so nicely Oni.

I agree, but more than decent 2D games were always there on the GB line of consoles, while they weren't of SNES standard, the GBA changed that. Not to mention it was only really 1 gen. If you take into consideration all 7 gens, then 2D & 3D are both as dominant as each other, 2D maybe even more. Of course this will change as 3D gaming is in more gens (It's about halfway now, 4 gens of dominant 2D, & now 3 of dominant 3D) but I'm certain that 2D gaming will continue in high quality thanks to XBLA, WiiWare, DS & PSP.

Linkyshinks [LS] said:

GRUMBLEMASTER said:I think bother Superlink and I are both perfectly aware of the 16-bit to 32-bit 2D-3D shift, i.e. the really fucking obvious one and the only real significant one.

There has been numerous shifts up and down the years and not just on home consoles. SuperLink is 16, how could he know that if he has not read the history of videogames . You should read it if you have not SL.

Again, the only real major shift between 2D and 3D was in the early to mid 90s. Before that, the vast majority of games were completely 2D or isometric or toyed around with polygons a bit. Since then, the vast majority of games have been 3D, so pretty much the total opposite. Any other stuff that happened is completely dwarfed by that shift. The number of 2D games coming out now is pretty much the same is it was in say, 1997, 2001 or 2004. I don't see how there has been any resurgence apart from 2D maybe being a little bit cooler nowadays due to the DS touch screen and HD stuff. Any minor or platform-specific fluctuations are irrelevant in this context.

Put simply, we are seeing AAA home console games in 2D for the first time in about a decade.

We are also seeing more and more games utilising 2D camera angles for sections where it benefits gameplay. A few years ago developers would have steered clear of that for fear of seeming old fashioned.

Half the 3D PS1 games I can think of are just 3D models on a 2D plane. Most of the Crash Bandicoot games are, the plane just changes direction occasionally. And I can't think of any 'AAA' 2D home console games that've come out recently anyway...

I wouldn't even consider stuff like XBL Arcade or WiiWare games proper console games, since they're being sold cheaper and in far lower quantities than 'proper' games. Plus if it doesn't come in a box I don't consider it a real game anyway >_>

GRUMBLEMASTER said:
Simply not the case. Right through the Saturn, PS1 and even N64 you had AAA 2D games. Not so much on the PS2/Xbox/GC, but plenty of exceptions like Metal Slug, Alien Hominid, lots of Naomi shooters, capcom fighters, SNK fighters, Nippon Ichi games, Guilty Gear etc if you actually open your eyes beyond the Gamecube. Plenty on the DC too. RTS on PC was mostly polygon free until about 6 or 7 years ago.

Ok Grumbler, if that's what AAA games means to you then fine. What I'm talking about are the games developers make to shift systems, shift major units or garner serious critical acclaim. Look at any list of the top selling games for PS1, PS2, xBox, Gamecube and N64 and you'll find that they're 3D. Same goes if you look at top rated games. The same list might not be quite so extreme with this generation of consoles.

To your credit, I'd forgotten about the Metroid Prime morph ball puzzles. I had, however, already said that fighters were something of an exception. I think we can just about dismiss Castlevania though, as that guy wouldn't know a new idea if it came up and beat him on the head. I also forgot about Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat, btw.

You may also be interested to know that when Sega were developing the Saturn, they had it pegged as a kind of 'super sprite' machine, and only added serious 3D support when they saw the specs for the original Playstation.

A final point: I'm sure there are numerous stories around the web about Sony not being interested in 2D games for the Playstation. They actively encouraged developers to go 3D and wouldn't fund 2D games in the majority of cases. I think that shows the change in the times when Little Big Planet is being set up to be one of the key releases on PS3.

Try asking yourself this: when was the last time a really massive game-of-the-year contender had substantial 2D content, or was entirely 2D?

You say that as if there are loads now... There aren't any... Little Big Planet is the only 2D-ish console game that anyone seems interested in, and no-one will actually get it because it's on a shit console that no-one wants. So... You're basing this idea of the 'return' of 2D (Despite it never leaving) on one game that no-one will buy...

The only other thing I can think of is that you're including DS games or something, which aren't console games obviously...

Megadanxzero said:
You say that as if there are loads now... There arent any... Little Big Planet is the only 2D-ish console game that anyone seems interested in, and no-one will actually get it because its on a shit console that no-one wants. So... Youre basing this idea of the return of 2D (Despite it never leaving) on one game that no-one will buy...The only other thing I can think of is that youre including DS games or something, which arent console games obviously...

So you honestly don't see a difference in the type of game being released, and the scale of those games, now as opposed to, say, 2 years ago? Or, for that matter, a difference in the way you as a comsumer view them? Or a difference in the way the gaming press view them?

Ok Grumbler, if that's what AAA games means to you then fine. What I'm talking about are the games developers make to shift systems, shift major units or garner serious critical acclaim. Look at any list of the top selling games for PS1, PS2, xBox, Gamecube and N64 and you'll find that they're 3D.

So you honestly don't see a difference in the type of game being released, and the scale of those games, now as opposed to, say, 2 years ago? Or, for that matter, a difference in the way you as a comsumer view them? Or a difference in the way the gaming press view them?

I also forgot about Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat, btw.

You should go and look at what Racketboy happened to put up today.

Try asking yourself this: when was the last time a really massive game-of-the-year contender had substantial 2D content, or was entirely 2D?

A final point: I'm sure there are numerous stories around the web about Sony not being interested in 2D games for the Playstation. They actively encouraged developers to go 3D and wouldn't fund 2D games in the majority of cases. I think that shows the change in the times when Little Big Planet is being set up to be one of the key releases on PS3.

( Edited on 12.10.2007 13:33 by GRUMBLEMASTER )

What real significance does it [Little Big Planet] have over something like Viewtiful Joe, Gradius V, R-Type Final or countless other last gen games (seeing as we're allowed 3D graphics to be included all of a sudden) if all we're talking about is review scores and market clout?

That Sony put it in their press conference. That marks a big enough change for me.

God why do you have to be so combative? All I did was suggest that 2D games are getting more attention than they have done for a number of years. Can you accept that there is at least some truth in this? Or does everything have to be totally black and white with you?

btw, I've been talking about 3D graphics in a 2D game all along. I explicitly said "I don't only mean sprite based games" in the OP.

God why do you have to be so combative? All I did was suggest that 2D games are getting more attention than they have done for a number of years. Can you accept that there is at least some truth in this? Or does everything have to be totally black and white with you?

Well frankly I find it irritating the way people who only buy Nintendo platforms appear to pretend that games on other platforms don't exist or don't count unless they're 'system sellers'. There have been plenty of very good 2D games on consoles even since the Playstation, so saying Sony putting their Web 2.0 game which happens to be 2D in their press conference (and they're literally swimming in Playstation exclusives they could have shown otherwise of course) is some kind of significant resurgence and then backing it up with a load of coincidental Nintendo references is a bit of a piss take actually.

btw, I've been talking about 3D graphics in a 2D game all along. I explicitly said "I don't only mean sprite based games" in the OP.

I dunno, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle of youz twoz argument. Grums is right when he says there have always been great 2D games, but so is Mr_R when he says that their popularity has waned, which is all I think he was saying, not that there have never been any. I think it's true to say that, after the '3D boom', 2D gaming went underground (on home consoles) for years. So while never being 'extinct', it lulled considerably.

As for the "Do 2D games with 3D graphics count as 2D or 3D?" thing- I really can't be arsed to form an opinion and comment on that.

I completed Metal Slug 4 in co-op with Blade on the PS2 the other day and I have to say that I found it a bit shit. Had only 6 levels and it was fucking hard too (to stay alive that is not to complete, as you've got unlimited lives). I must have died at least 3, maybe 4 times on average per level. How the hell anyone could complete this in the arcades I do not know. Far, far too chaotic, can't see what's happening or what's killing you. Looked like a PS1 game and all, they could have spruced it up a bit for the PS2. Thumbs down.

Play Gradius V, available in a used bargain bin near you.

Will do.

Regarding the debate, well, I have noticed a resurgance in the popularity of 2D games on consoles in recent years. But, then again, I never payed any attention to games like Metal Slug and the like when they were released. So the trend I see is due more to my ignorance than anything.

Oh, and I remember that little 3Dophile era in the second half of the nineties. Woah, look at that T-rex, he's all 3D! Look, you can move the camera all around him. His chest is moving, he's breathing! We must exploit this technology to it's fullest! Fuck quality.

Yeah I remember wanting all my old favorite megadrive/snes games in 3D.
I think it was around 2000 when I realised maybe just slapping 3D on something isn't the way forward as I started rediscovering Megadrive games and SNES games on emulators.

It was such a harsh cut off from 2D games but it was too be expected I guess, we had been playing in 2D for years and 3D was all fancy and new it was just forgotten for a while by most people.

CuRoi said:
, and I remember that little 3Dophile era in the second half of the nineties. Woah, look at that T-rex, hes all 3D! Look, you can move the camera all around him. His chest is moving, hes breathing! We must exploit this technology to its fullest! Fuck quality.

Ha yeah. And they still haven't figured out that Sonic doesn't really work that well in 3D.