News: EA: Frostbite 3 on Nintendo Wii U is Page 1

Supa_hyped 02.07.2013#1

anybody with sense would know that frostbite3 is possible on wiiu. how are you going to have an unprecedented partnership and 1 of your key assets is not compatible with your partnering companies new console??. just release a new fifa and bf4 and go away EA

( Edited 02.07.2013 13:27 by Supa_hyped )

Sonic_13 02.07.2013#2

"making Frostbite 3 work on the Wii U is not impossible"

"It's just that we haven't bother to put an ounce of effort into making it work. Getting us to do that is what's impossible." he continued.

It's annoying when companies like EA and Epic state that their engines won't work on Wii U while in the same breath promoting the fact that they are extremely scalable and will work on everything from top-of-the-line PCs down to smart phones...but not Wii U.

J4K 02.07.2013#3

Most of this is purely business. "It won't work on Wii U" doesn't mean "it's not possible". Practically speaking, you can port an engine to just about anything. What it really means is one of the following:

To make it work, I'd have to sacrifice a lot of what makes the engine an improvement over older tech (i.e. Epic: it's a waste of time to try to make UE4 work well on the Wii U when we've already got UE3 for that platform)

Yeah, it could work; might even work well. But I'm not going to spend big money and waste thousands of man hours repurposing my first-class game engine to work on a console no one is buying

Number 1 is an independent issue on its own, but it also kind of stems from number 2, which is the real problem. If developers don't see an opportunity to make money, they're simply not going to do it. You know why UE4 can scale down to iPhone and iPad? Because there's money there.

If the Wii U recovers this fall and gets itself a decent install-base and its community proves that they'll actually support 3rd parties, I bet we start seeing developers reallocate resources to get this sort of work done. But until developing on Wii U becomes financially viable there's no reason for these companies to bend over backwards for Nintendo.

erc (guest) 02.07.2013#4

Jacob4000 said:
Most of this is purely business. "It won't work on Wii U" doesn't mean "it's not possible". Practically speaking, you can port an engine to just about anything. What it really means is one of the following:

To make it work, I'd have to sacrifice a lot of what makes the engine an improvement over older tech (i.e. Epic: it's a waste of time to try to make UE4 work well on the Wii U when we've already got UE3 for that platform)

The problem I find with this discussion is that Frostbite 3 is coming to both PS3 and 360 with BF4. Most developers have said that 360/PS3 isn't much different than WiiU development. So what's the big deal?

Supa_hyped 02.07.2013#5

erc (guest) said:
Jacob4000 said:
Most of this is purely business. "It won't work on Wii U" doesn't mean "it's not possible". Practically speaking, you can port an engine to just about anything. What it really means is one of the following:

To make it work, I'd have to sacrifice a lot of what makes the engine an improvement over older tech (i.e. Epic: it's a waste of time to try to make UE4 work well on the Wii U when we've already got UE3 for that platform)

The problem I find with this discussion is that Frostbite 3 is coming to both PS3 and 360 with BF4. Most developers have said that 360/PS3 isn't much different than WiiU development. So what's the big deal?

and its coming to ps4 and x1 who have less of an installer base than wiiu. i understand that they need to make money but if the x1 or ps4 fail to sell huge numbers in the first year are EA gonna pull this crap.... hell naw!

Sonic_13 02.07.2013#6

Supa_hyped said:
erc (guest) said:
Jacob4000 said:
Most of this is purely business. "It won't work on Wii U" doesn't mean "it's not possible". Practically speaking, you can port an engine to just about anything. What it really means is one of the following:

To make it work, I'd have to sacrifice a lot of what makes the engine an improvement over older tech (i.e. Epic: it's a waste of time to try to make UE4 work well on the Wii U when we've already got UE3 for that platform)

The problem I find with this discussion is that Frostbite 3 is coming to both PS3 and 360 with BF4. Most developers have said that 360/PS3 isn't much different than WiiU development. So what's the big deal?
and its coming to ps4 and x1 who have less of an installer base than wiiu. i understand that they need to make money but if the x1 or ps4 fail to sell huge numbers in the first year are EA gonna pull this crap.... hell naw!

That's basically the point I was going to bring up.

While not bringing an engine to a certain platform because of sales concerns is certainly a legitimate business reason, Nintendo is probably the only major company that would actually be held to that standard.

I also find it hard to believe that this is the case with EA as their support for Wii U started eroding before the system even launched.

crackedthesky 02.07.2013#7

If we take into account recent behind-the-scenes rumors, here's what I think happened:

EA shunned Nintendo over Origin.

EA made a Star Wars deal with Disney. Disney likes Wii U and told EA they have to develop for it.

Star Wars Battlefront 3 will use Frostbite 3.

Thus, EA now has to make Frostbite 3 work on Wii U, which was always possible (Battlefield was one of the first games confirmed for Wii U before EA backed out and cancelled it, after all), they just didn't want to.

My hope is that since they're doing it anyway, all of these other Frostbite games will be ported to Wii U. By the time they start rolling out, the Wii U should have a much larger install base.

Speaking of which, does anyone know where I can find sales figures for the Wii U? The only one I keep seeing is the <4 million from March. I'm sure sales got a boost after E3 and will continue to rise through the holiday.

NNID: crackedthesky
My blog, mostly about writing: http://www.davidjlovato.com

J4K 02.07.2013#8

and its coming to ps4 and x1 who have less of an installer base than wiiu. i understand that they need to make money but if the x1 or ps4 fail to sell huge numbers in the first year are EA gonna pull this crap.... hell naw!

...

Do any of you really think that Battlefield 4 on Wii U would outsell the PS4 and XB1 versions?

Because at that point you're being intentionally delusional.

Again, devs go where there is money to be made. There's no money to be made on Wii U right now, but there's a pretty damn good bet that there's some profit to be made on PS4 and XB1. Maybe those systems will bomb and EA will have to do a serious about face, but just being realistic here it makes perfect sense for EA to see the PS4 and XB1 (and even 360 and PS3) as the platforms with the most opportunity for them when it comes profiting from the Frostbite 3 engine.

The problem I find with this discussion is that Frostbite 3 is coming to both PS3 and 360 with BF4. Most developers have said that 360/PS3 isn't much different than WiiU development. So what's the big deal?

Again, it's about money in the bank. Developers do not have unlimited resources. Do you assign valuable teams and money to port an engine and games to a system where there's going to be little return on investment? Or how about you put that same money and those precious manhours into solid PS3 and 360 ports, where you're likely to sell in droves? The Wii U architecture is closer to the 360 certainly than the Wii was, but that doesn't make it a simple cut and paste job.

Really, all of this boils down to money and common sense. These publishers aren't going to please shareholders by doing charity work for Nintendo.

( Edited 02.07.2013 18:41 by Jacob4000 )

Sonic_13 02.07.2013#9

Jacob4000 said:
Super_hyped said:
and its coming to ps4 and x1 who have less of an installer base than wiiu. i understand that they need to make money but if the x1 or ps4 fail to sell huge numbers in the first year are EA gonna pull this crap.... hell naw!
...
Do any of you really think that Battlefield 4 on Wii U would outsell the PS4 and XB1 versions?
Because at that point you're being intentionally delusional.

1) Super_hyped never said that.

2) It doesn't have to outsell the other versions to make money or be successful.

3) Based on the sales of other Wii U third party games, I wouldn't consider it out of the realm of possibilities. Most people think third party titles have sold terribly on Wii U because they compare raw sales numbers between the PS3/360 and Wii U. But that is because the PS3/360 each have an install base 22x Wii U's. If you look at the attach rates for those same games you will see that most of the time the Wii U versions sell basically the same. Given that and the fact that (for at least a little while) Wii U will have the largest install base there is no reason to believe any third party game wouldn't have similar sales.

( Edited 02.07.2013 18:55 by Sonic_13 )

triggy (guest) 02.07.2013#10

Ive seen this sonic13 guy posting and you always quote from vgchartz which is a totally unreliable source of information. Plus you cannot compare attach rates to the other two main systems because only the diehard nintendo fans own the wiiu right now and maybe some other hardcore users, but the ps3 and xbox360 have a far broader userbase that means the 3rd party titles you compare are likely to have a better attach rate on wiiu anyway. That doesnt mean theyve sold well at all. In fact, the vast majority of 3rd party games on wiiu have sold badly. Seems pretty desperate to cling to whatever false hope you can find, but hey, if thats what keeps you happy, so be it.

Cluelessjane (guest) 02.07.2013#11

...thousands of man hours repurposing my first-class game engine to work on a console

That's a lot of man hours. Thousands? At least 10 employees working full time solely on porting an engine for weeks on end...I didn't know it took that amount of work. That would be a waste of resources, absolutely. Gee. Is the WiiU that complex of a console to develop for?

J4K 02.07.2013#12

1) Super_hyped never said that.

The implication was there in the statement that the XB1 and PS4 currently have no install base and are thus no more worthy of BF4 than the Wii U is. I find this statement to be intentionally blind to reality -- hence my question do any of you think a BF4 Wii U edition would outsell its XB1 and PS4 counterparts?

2) It doesn't have to outsell the other versions to make money or be successful.

There's a difference between being successful and being worth the effort. If a port on Wii U turned a profit, technically it's successful. But if the same resources could be applied somewhere else for more profit, then it's not worth the time and money to develop on Wii U.

People make the assumption that publishers have endless development teams ready to churn out software. The reality is these resources have to be prioritized; and when it comes down to it, do you prioritize the Wii U -- where it might be possible to be successful in the strictest sense of the word -- or other systems where success is more likely to be found on a larger scale.

3) Based on the sales of other Wii U third party games, I wouldn't consider it out of the realm of possibilities. Most people think third party titles have sold terribly on Wii U because they compare raw sales numbers between the PS3/360 and Wii U. But that is because the PS3/360 each have an install base 22x Wii U's. If you look at the attach rates for those same games you will see that most of the time the Wii U versions sell basically the same. Given that and the fact that (for at least a little while) Wii U will have the largest install base there is no reason to believe any third party game wouldn't have similar sales.

I believe I've already debated with you on this point - in a lot of cases (Call of Duty was the one we spoke about previously, I think) attach rate didn't favor the Wii U at all. In some cases, it might paint a marginally better picture. The reality is, if developers felt their projects had been successful, or if their future projects could be successful on Wii U, then they'd be working on games for the system. As it is, major publishers are taking a wait and see approach because they don't currently see an opportunity to make money.

If anything, I would expect BF4 to follow Call of Duty's sales curve on Wii U - AKA not good.

More attach-rate talk that went on longer than I expected in the spoiler tag:

Show Spoiler

Anyhow, to summarize, I think a lot of Nintendo fans get hyped on the idea that publishers like to screw it to Nintendo. No, they just like to make money.

edit:

That's a lot of man hours. Thousands? At least 10 employees working full time solely on porting an engine for weeks on end...I didn't know it took that amount of work. That would be a waste of resources, absolutely. Gee. Is the WiiU that complex of a console to develop for?

It doesn't take much for manhours to add up. Ten employees working 40 hours a week (and in general programmers work much longer hours than that) for two and a half weeks crosses the "thousand man hour" threshold.

It's not necessarily that the Wii U is so uniquely complex - it's not. It's just that this business is typicaly over-simplified by people who don't really understand the complexities of game development. Even a "simple-port" takes quite a bit of money and development time. It's rarely as trivial as people assume to port a game (or even just an engine). Easier than something brand new? Absolutely. But still not something programmer Joe finishes up over a coffee on his lunch break.

( Edited 02.07.2013 21:02 by Jacob4000 )

Edit this post:

[quote]1) Super_hyped never said that.[/quote]

The implication was there in the statement that the XB1 and PS4 currently have no install base and are thus no more worthy of BF4 than the Wii U is. I find this statement to be intentionally blind to reality -- hence my question [i]do any of you think a BF4 Wii U edition would outsell its XB1 and PS4 counterparts?[/i]

[quote]2) It doesn't have to outsell the other versions to make money or be successful.[/quote]

There's a difference between being successful and being worth the effort. If a port on Wii U turned a profit, technically it's successful. But if the same resources could be applied somewhere else for more profit, then it's not worth the time and money to develop on Wii U.

People make the assumption that publishers have endless development teams ready to churn out software. The reality is these resources have to be prioritized; and when it comes down to it, do you prioritize the Wii U -- where it might be possible to be successful in the strictest sense of the word -- or [i]other systems[/i] where success is more likely to be found on a larger scale.

[quote]3) Based on the sales of other Wii U third party games, I wouldn't consider it out of the realm of possibilities. Most people think third party titles have sold terribly on Wii U because they compare raw sales numbers between the PS3/360 and Wii U. But that is because the PS3/360 each have an install base 22x Wii U's. If you look at the attach rates for those same games you will see that most of the time the Wii U versions sell basically the same. Given that and the fact that (for at least a little while) Wii U will have the largest install base there is no reason to believe any third party game wouldn't have similar sales.[/quote]

I believe I've already debated with you on this point - in a lot of cases (Call of Duty was the one we spoke about previously, I think) attach rate didn't favor the Wii U at all. In some cases, it might paint a marginally better picture. The reality is, if developers felt their projects had been successful, or if their future projects could be successful on Wii U, then they'd be working on games for the system. As it is, major publishers are taking a wait and see approach because they don't currently see [i]an opportunity to make money.[/i]

If anything, I would expect BF4 to follow Call of Duty's sales curve on Wii U - AKA not good.

[u]More attach-rate talk that went on longer than I expected in the spoiler tag:[/u]
[spoiler]
This is a point that could be debated much longer, because there is some logic to it. At a certain percentage of a very limited install-base, you might equivalently say a product was just as successful. On the other hand, though, that does little to make an accountant feel better about the bottom line. Your up front costs to develop a game don't shrink just because the Wii U has a small install-base. I doubt it's of much comfort that game X matched the attach rate on the PS3 and 360, but still only managed to sell in the thousands.

I think with a new system, there's also the expectation that the attach rate will be [i]much[/i] [i]higher[/i] than it otherwise would be on more established systems, because there's less competition. For example, if you want a shooter on Wii U, what are you going to buy? Hell if you want any decent game regardless of genre you only have a dozen or so options at best. But if you want a shooter on 360 and PS3, you could literally spend the entire day talking about the different choices just in that one genre.

This is what's concerning, I think. The attach-rate should theoretically already be inflated due to low competition, but we're only seeing matching rates at best. Again, a point that could be taken much further, but I don't see the Wii U matching attach rates in some cases (while clearly missing them in others) is really evidence of success, and it looks like developers in general agree. It seems like more of an attempt to make the best of a bleak situation.
[/spoiler]

Anyhow, to summarize, I think a lot of Nintendo fans get hyped on the idea that publishers like to screw it to Nintendo. No, they just like to make money.

edit:
[quote]That's a lot of man hours. Thousands? At least 10 employees working full time solely on porting an engine for weeks on end...I didn't know it took that amount of work. That would be a waste of resources, absolutely. Gee. Is the WiiU that complex of a console to develop for?[/quote]

It doesn't take much for manhours to add up. Ten employees working 40 hours a week (and in general programmers work much longer hours than that) for two and a half weeks crosses the "thousand man hour" threshold.

It's not necessarily that the Wii U is so uniquely complex - it's not. It's just that this business is typicaly over-simplified by people who don't really understand the complexities of game development. Even a "simple-port" takes quite a bit of money and development time. It's rarely as trivial as people assume to port a game (or even just an engine). Easier than something brand new? Absolutely. But still not something programmer Joe finishes up over a coffee on his lunch break.

Save Changes Cancel Full Edit

Supa_hyped 02.07.2013#13

Jacob4000 said:
and its coming to ps4 and x1 who have less of an installer base than wiiu. i understand that they need to make money but if the x1 or ps4 fail to sell huge numbers in the first year are EA gonna pull this crap.... hell naw!
...
Do any of you really think that Battlefield 4 on Wii U would outsell the PS4 and XB1 versions?
Because at that point you're being intentionally delusional.

err....we were talking about frostbite3 not individual games made with the engine but seeing as tho you brought it up... there is every chance battlefield4 wiiu could outsell at least 1 of the new consoles. seems as tho u seem to think all ps3 and 360 owners are going to immediately ditch their consoles for ps4 and x1.

1. the wiiu is out NOW in 4mill plus homes
2. no one owns a ps4 or x1( bf x1/ps4 £400 plus)
3. the same game is going to be available on 360 and ps3 for £50

common sense should tell u that ps3/360 will sell the most

J4K 02.07.2013#14

common sense should tell u that ps3/360 will sell the most

I don't dispute that for a second.

edit:

err....we were talking about frostbite3 not individual games made with the engine but seeing as tho you brought it up.

More on this point - you don't bring engines to systems for the hell of it. You bring them to systems to power games. And right now there are only two games slated to come out this year running on Frostbite 3: Battlefield 4 and Need for Speed. So in talking about one you're kind of talking about the other at this point.

If EA brought Frostbite 3 to Wii U this year, they would more than likely be doing it because they decided to expand BF4 to another console. Of course in the long run a lot more will run on Frostbite 3 than just these two.

( Edited 02.07.2013 20:21 by Jacob4000 )

Agul 04.07.2013#15

The thing is, Wii U won't have a large install base and longevity when 3rd parties are constantly pulling this kind of crap.

"Wii U can do it. > Wii U might be able to do it. > Wii U cannot do it."

It's as if EA's speech during Nintendo's E3'12 press conference never took place.

We all know what's going on with their support for Wii U, and it comes right down to them making as much money in the quickest, and most unethical way possible. That, and it's a safe bet their Origin service getting passed on by Nintendo has a lot to do with it.

Chance favors the prepared mind.

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EA: Frostbite 3 on Nintendo Wii U is

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